BrainKing - Discussion boards (Espionage)

Subject: Re: Draw rule

Nothingness:
I would say the wins I have against you and others here playing Espionage and my very high win percentage in Sabotage variations at IYT adequately refute your claim that I am inexperienced.

The fact that "turtling" is a well known and widely used strategy does not necessitate that rules do not discourage their use. On the contrary, rules are commonly used as a mechanism to deter such strategies. The following is copied from the site you linked in your message.

"In practice, however, games are often designed to punish turtling through various game mechanics. Consequently, while turtling strategies are usually simple enough for novices to learn and are effective as such, they are easily defeated by experienced players who understand the game's methods to counter turtling."

That being the case, I strongly suggest that a draw rule be used to inhibit the use of turtling.

26. July 2011, 09:08:04

Subject: I found some interesting information...

...on the 50 move draw rule in chess.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifty-move_rule

"The fifty-move rule in chess states that a player can claim a draw if no capture has been made and no pawn has been moved in the last fifty consecutive moves (fifty moves by each side). The intended reason for the rule is so that a player with no chance to win cannot be obstinate and play on indefinitely (Hooper & Whyld 1992), or seek a win purely due to an opponent's fatigue. All of the basic checkmates can be accomplished in well under fifty moves.
In the 20th century it was discovered that some positions of certain endgames can only be won in more than fifty moves (without a capture or a pawn move). The rule was changed to include certain exceptions in which one hundred moves were allowed with particular material combinations. However, more and more exceptions were discovered and in 1992 FIDE abolished all such exceptions and reinstated the strict fifty-move rule."

I hope it's not a problem that I copied the text and pasted it here.
The point is that though it was found that a game could be won beyond the 50 moves, the 50 move rule was eventually reinstated. Again, this rule ensures that a game must progress or a player will have the right to call a draw. I assert that such reasoning applies or should apply to Espionage as well.

27. July 2011, 13:50:22

dAGGER

Subject: Re: Draw rule

Nothingness:
I think a minimum number of moves with no capture is a good rule to force a draw, if one of the opponents claims for it:
1) it is simple to remember for everyone
2) it helps preventing games to go on years, when only a player is very slow
3) if two skilled and defensive players agree on going on, it does not oblige to end up the game as a draw, if no opponent asks for it.

I think the most important thing here is to help games to go on faster.

27. July 2011, 14:04:54

cookie monster

Subject: Catching up

On the Spy issues, I like Dark Prince's proposed wording change for the additional information it provides even though the current wording appears consistent.

On the Draw rule, I think we can ignore both repetition of position and moves that prevent that (e.g. a piece being revealed by a Spy) and focus solely on the number of TURNS without a capture. (Other approaches would hit the clause eventually anyway). As for the number of turns, I would suggest 60, but will happily go with a higher number if someone links a game that includes more than 60 and still resulted in a decisive outcome on the board.

As far as turtling, I again agree with Dark Prince's statement: "The fact that "turtling" is a well known and widely used strategy does not necessitate that rules do not discourage their use. On the contrary, rules are commonly used as a mechanism to deter such strategies. "

If one player wishes to sit back and do nothing but defend then, obviously, the second player can sit and not attack and a draw is the natural outcome. Letting a person not attack and then refuse a draw indefinitely seems sub-optimal to me.

27. July 2011, 15:43:20

Subject: Re: Catching up

cookie monster:
Thanks for your input and correction.
I am so accustomed to the word "move" for a draw situation that I didn't realize I was using it where "turn" is the appropriate word for this game type.

27. July 2011, 18:25:12

Subject: Re: Draw rule

dAGGER: I think a minimum number of moves with no capture is a good rule to force a draw, if one of the opponents claims for it:
1) it is simple to remember for everyone
2) it helps preventing games to go on years, when only a player is very slow
3) if two skilled and defensive players agree on going on, it does not oblige to end up the game as a draw, if no opponent asks for it."

I agree with dAGGER completely. For this reason I think the rules shoudln't be too different between the various variants, best would be 1 and the same rule (x amount of noncapture moves maybe with an addition of beginning after move y)

27. July 2011, 20:25:12

Subject: The existing draw rule...

at IYT:
"If a game of Sabotage has a certain number of moves in a row with no captures, then the game is a draw. The number of moves varies according to the type of Sabotage game:

* Sabotage: 50 moves per player
* Sabotage Rush: 50 moves per player
* Mini Sabotage: 35 moves per player

These rules apply to Sabotage games which were started after 5/8/01."

I recommend listing a date for which games that were started before are exempt from the draw rule or at least the count is reset on that date for them.

28. July 2011, 02:52:47

Subject: Draw Rule Proposal

Chaos:
Draw:
There are two ways of ending a game in a draw.
The first is by agreement between the opponents in which one player offers a draw and the other player accepts the offer. This can occur at any time during the game.
The other is by request to support under the 50-move rule if the opponent refuses the draw offer.
The 50-move rule (as it's called in chess) applies when X turns or more by each player have transpired since move Y (or X turns by one player and X-1 turns by the player requesting the draw) without a capture.

Move Y is the starting turn from which the X count begins. Regardless of the variation, the Y turn is reset to the latest move a capture by either player is made including resetting it to a turn prior to the initial Y for that variation. A capture is the only way to reset Y. A capture occurs any time a piece is moved to a square occupied by an enemy piece regardless of which piece is removed from the game board and placed in the appropriate capture list.

The draw must be offered when it is your turn and prior to making a move (it must be possible to legally make all moves that turn without moving any piece onto a square occupied by an enemy piece if it's the Xth move but not if beyond that move). If the X count is met or exceeded and no draw offer is made then or after, the opportunity will expire when a piece is captured.

It is annoying to many players to receive multiple draw offers when the threshold "X" moves has not been met.
Do not offer a draw more than once prior to the threshold or there will be a penalty. Any request for support to enforce the 50-move rule when the constraints for the rule have not been met will also invoke the penalty.
The other player will choose between two possible penalties. Either Y will be reset to the move of the inappropriate draw offer or the player making the offer must choose one of his mines to be removed by support.

28. July 2011, 09:30:55

Justaminute

Subject: Re: Draw Rule Proposal

Dark Prince:
I think the part about multiple draw offers isn't appropriate. Yes it is annoying and yes it is bad manners but this can happen in any game on Brainking and I see no reason why Espionage should be treated differently. BK is no different to playing over the board, you politely decline the first time, do it more firmly the second time and then ignore them. They get the message. If it reaches a point where it is harrassment you can appeal to the arbitor (Fencer here).

28. July 2011, 10:59:15

Espionage (Dark Prince, 2011-04-13 01:17:20)

If chess has a 50 move rule and sabotage at IYT has it for some variants, maybe it's best to ask for at least 50 moves for all variants here? Same for all seems most clear to me. 60 moves is fine with me (as cookie monster asked for). Could everyone live with that?

@Dark Prince: With y I referred to your earlier post: To allow for slow starters, the 50 move rule could start at move 25 and the 35 move rule for smaller boards could start at move 15 for the open variations.
50 moves starting at move 50 and 35 moves starting at move 30 for the volcano variations.

If we ask for such a starting point I suggest we ask for the same starting point for all variants.

29. July 2011, 05:21:40

Subject: Re: penalty

Justaminute:
I'm not too concerned about whether the penalty I suggested is included as part of the draw rule. It has been rare that I've been offered a draw that I declined.

I can't agree with the reasoning, however, that a rule shouldn't lead to different treatment than occurs in another game type. On the contrary, differing rules are what sets a game apart from other games.
Penalties do occur in games for various purposes depending on the circumstances. In checkers, for example, there are variations that impose the penalty of removing a checker if an available jump is not taken.
In some timed chess tournaments there are time penalties for false draw claims and other infractions.
The lack of a penalty for an infraction in some game types does not imply that proposing a penalty for that infraction in a particular game is inappropriate.

29. July 2011, 09:35:14

Justaminute

Subject: Re: penalty

Dark Prince:
Do you seriously think that such a request has a remote chance of happening given all the requests that get posted on the feature request board?

The checker example is part of the game. The penalty is for failing to notice that you can take a piece.

The penalties you refer to in chess, such as a mobile going off, are because of the disruption to players concentration when they have limited time available. Hardly comparable.

Your suggested amendment is not part of the game, not unique to espionage and while I am no expert, I would think hugely difficult to programme.

29. July 2011, 10:09:57

Subject: Re: penalty

Justaminute:
Whether something has a chance of being implemented should not be a bar to its introduction for discussion.
Whatever the reason for the penalty, removing a checker from the board is a penalty that does NOT occur in all checker variations. It doesn't occur in chess or most other games where a player may choose not to make a move to capture an opponent's piece.

The point I was making was not to show an approximate comparison. It does show that penalties exist in other games. You do not have to agree with the penalty I propose or that there should be a penalty.
My suggestions on a draw rule are not part of the game yet it is being discussed by several others. Though the addition of a penalty is not a part of the game, it too could be discussed and either rejected or accepted.
I make no apology for suggesting it.

There has been no suggestion made that the rule would require any kind of program change other than to add the text to the rules. The 50-move chess rule is not programmed. A player who calls a draw in chess based on the 50-move rule sends it to support to call the draw if the opponent declines the draw offer. The same would be the case in Espionage for either the draw or the penalty.

29. July 2011, 19:31:37

Justaminute

Subject: Re: penalty

Dark Prince:
Perhaps I misunderstand your point then, I rather assumed removing a mine would need a programme change.

29. July 2011, 23:27:51

Subject: Re: penalty

Justaminute:
If it would require a program change, I would agree that the option of removing a mine would not work. I am sure Fencer would answer that if it came to a point that a consensus of players liked that penalty addition. If the consensus were against it, it would be a moot point.

12. August 2011, 11:00:45

Subject: Tournament

Modified by Sandoz (12. August 2011, 11:02:21)

I've just discovered a cool tournament. ;-)

Espionage Masters I

12. August 2011, 11:49:01

Subject: Re: Tournament

Sandoz: I can't join- that sucks.Says I'm already in a tournament even though my section is lonnnng finished Championship world BK 2011

can I do anything about this.The reason I'm not a member any more is because of complete lack of support for couple questions I had.No more cash from me for BK

12. August 2011, 12:03:04

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim:

What a pity!

I've just become a paying member.

Giddy up, Jim! ;-)

12. August 2011, 13:05:45

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: What questions did you have? Maybe we can back them up as group so the chance is bigger Fencer will listen to it.

12. August 2011, 16:52:40

rod03801

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: Since you can't move on in that tournament, if you write to Fencer, he will make you able to join another one. (At least he always has)

12. August 2011, 17:16:28

Chaos -they were simple questions about pictures on my profile that I wanted deleted.No way to delete them and no help from person who answered.Another point that tournament that I am supposedly still in--the outcome is decided--Nothingness wins the section yet everyone must wait for a nothing game to finish between the 2 lowest ranking players.Ridiculous

13. August 2011, 12:33:49

@CelticJim: send a message to Fencer:

Fencer

Fencer is the one in charge. Usually he replies fast. I can't imagine he'll declines your requests.

16. August 2011, 12:00:54

Subject: Re:

Chaos: thx for taking the time to reply Chaos but my previous messages revealed someone who couldn't care less about members much less non-paying players

16. August 2011, 12:48:15

rod03801

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: Your choice. He has done it for hundreds of pawns. (Moved them out of tournaments where they couldn't progress so they could join another)

17. August 2011, 21:16:19

lukulus

Subject: Re: Tournament

Celticjim: You didnt advance. Write Fencer and he probably will release you from this tournament and you can sign in.

17. August 2011, 22:47:26

I shouldn't have to write to him and refuse to do so--I found him ignorant--fair enough english is his second language and I don't speak his tongue but my request to have pictures deleted was hardly a technically challenging one---

On IYT (where I am now a paying member again) the next round of tournament starts when the sections are decided-seems logical

18. August 2011, 05:30:15

I feel that re-installing a committee would help with any rulings. Such as drawn positions. if the committee can look at a situation and decide that "yes i see winning possibilities for white no you cannot be granted a draw" or no you cannot win in this situation draw" i can agree to this.

18. August 2011, 08:37:47

lukulus

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: I used to be paying member on IYT too years ago. It was a bit strange for me to see start of next round afte end of all groups, but it has also own logic. On IYT was much less tournaments, so may be it was reason.

18. August 2011, 13:01:58

Subject: Espionage Masters I

Only 19 days left to sign up for a big Espionage-Battle! Now, all variants covered!

Espionage Masters I

18. August 2011, 13:16:39

Subject: Draw rule, PLEASE REACT

Modified by Chaos (18. August 2011, 13:33:07)

Nothingness: we can ask for a draw rule to be implemented in the espionage rules, and I would be happy to do so as soon as there is a consensus what exactly we want to ask for.

DRAW RULE PROPOSAL: a draw can be asked for after 60 moves of non-capture. (seems a simple and clear rule to me). I would like to hear from you all what you think of this, so I can make the request to Fencer.

A committe only has authority to those who choose to be part of the group listening to this committee, which seems to me to be the people who would already be reasonable. A committee would also have to have a draw rule to apply. How often does the situation occur anyway? I've never had such situation.

18. August 2011, 13:20:26

Subject: Re: Espionage Masters I

Sandoz: You could post your tournament on the tournament messageboard as well.

18. August 2011, 13:28:54

Subject: Re:

Celticjim: Did you write your request directly to Fencer? I always get a fast, friendly and helpful answer.

18. August 2011, 13:33:30

Subject: Re: draw rule

Chaos:
The frequency of utilizing a rule is not a reasonable measure of whether the rule should exist. In chess, the 50 move rule is rarely used (as a percentage of games played), and the en passant rule is also rarely utilized.
The stalemate rule may come up even less frequently but is a factor that cannot be ignored in tactical considerations.
The 50-move draw rule would serve tactical purposes too in Espionage, i.e. "sh*t or get off the pot."

18. August 2011, 13:37:46

Subject: Re: draw rule

Modified by Chaos (18. August 2011, 14:07:55)

Dark Prince: I guess you misunderstood me. I actually made a proposal to request a draw rule so you could conclude I think it's a good thing to install one. (my point to Nothingness was I don't see the point in reinstalling a committee, I think it's best to go to Fencer if someone doesn't accept the draw, since he can inforce it, my other point to Nothingness was that I don't see other draw situations needing a rule, much less needing a committee).

My question to everyone; is 60 moves ok? Or do we want 50 moves like in chess?

In my opinion there shouldn't be a stalemate rule in espionage; there's no king, no piece with a 'forbidden' move, like in chess. So if you put yourself in a position where you can only be captured or walk into a bomb, you've lost. It's not forbidden in espionage to do either.

18. August 2011, 14:32:51

Subject: Re: stalemate

Chaos:
There already is a stalemate rule.
Stalemate: "A situation in which further action is blocked; a deadlock."
A player that cannot make a legal move on his or her turn loses.

18. August 2011, 14:34:37

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: stalemate

Dark Prince: Where exactly at BK is that rule written or referred to?

18. August 2011, 14:40:28

Subject: Re: stalemate

Pedro Martínez: I copied the below from the rules at the bottom of the page for the 2 move variation of Espionage:

How to finish a game

The game is finished when one of the following conditions is fulfilled:

* A player captures opponent's Headquarters. This player wins the game.
* A player cannot make a legal move. This player loses the game.

18. August 2011, 14:43:11

Subject: DRAW RULE

Dark Prince: ok, I thought you meant there should be a stalemate rule like in chess (draw). So we don't have to discuss stalemate.

Let's discuss the draw rule: what about my proposal?

18. August 2011, 14:46:49

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: stalemate

Dark Prince: OK, I got confused by those quotation marks.

18. August 2011, 14:52:33

cookie monster

Subject: Re: draw rule

Chaos:

I think 50 or 60 turns is fine.

It's never happened in one of my games, but that's only because a draw was agreed to in positions where it would have happened. It's easy to construct a position where it can happen.

18. August 2011, 14:56:20

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Chaos:
I agree that the existing stalemate rule is a good one.

Pedro Martínez:
That was just the definition for stalemate that I had put in quotes.

Chaos:
On the number of moves for a draw, I have made proposals indicating a smaller number of moves for the smaller board variations, but 60 moves is better than not having a rule. Will that be from the beginning of the game?

18. August 2011, 15:06:40

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Dark Prince: 60 moves of non-capture beginning at the start of the game, yes.

18. August 2011, 15:08:54

We should probably start to enforce(begin to count) the rule once a potential engagement "can" occur. For example no one can attack for at least 3-4 moves depending upon an opponents response. So we can start counting then. I think someone mentioned starting the counting after a few moves have started.Such as turn 15 or 20. The enemy cannot be engaged until proper reinforcements have been established. The volcano versions make for a more difficult attacking challenge. So perhaps waiting a little bit before starting the count. The open challenge is much easier to attack so a lower start count could be feasible.

18. August 2011, 15:18:50

Subject: Re:

Nothingness: I think the chances of getting the rule implemented are higher if the rule is simple, clear and same for all variants. If we choose for the 60 moves instead of 50, you also have the 10 moves extra in the beginning.

18. August 2011, 15:25:50

Subject: Re:

Chaos: Yes that makes sense, and it would be more clear if it is consistent across the board.

18. August 2011, 16:02:56

Subject: Re: DRAW RULE

Chaos:
I agree with your proposal on the draw rule.

25. August 2011, 20:58:37

Subject: capturing in notation

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but we probably need to have an "x" added to the notation so that it can be easier to track the move count. Currently we cannot differentiate between a regular and capture moves.

26. August 2011, 01:32:53

Subject: Re: capturing in notation

Nothingness:
No doubt, that would require a programming change. Altering the notation for that purpose is unnecessary since either player can go to any specific move to look at the capture lists of both players to verify any change to those lists. Additionally, any player has the option of utilizing the "add note" feature to record the most recent move # in which a capture is made and thereafter edit that note when another capture is made.

26. August 2011, 15:37:41

Subject: Espionage Masters I

Only 10 days left to sign up for a big Espionage-Battle! All variants covered! Many great players taking part.

Espionage Masters I

28. August 2011, 09:19:13