BrainKing - Discussion boards (Feature requests)

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII:
you cannot see it's beneficial for the trailing player that draws won't count?

I think that's a valid point - that's actually how it works without the doubling cube, too. In my defence, I'll say that I covered this possibility when I said that I didn't see any serious drawbacks. Let's take your argument a step further:

If I'm trailing in a match, and the current game is likely to be a draw, there shouldn't be any hesitation to double if that means the game effectively won't count, should there?

Why is that a problem? Most likely, the game is going to end in a draw. In that case, both you and your opponent gets the double of 0, which is 0. So you can double, but it will only have consequences if there are indeed other possible outcomes than a draw. Which I guess was sort of the intention of introducing the doubling cube in the first place. Or, in other words: If there is even the slightest possibilty that you might lose, there should also be a slight hesitation to double. And if there's really no such possibility, then as you say, there shouldn't be any hesitation. I think that is how it should be. I don't see a problem.

12. February 2010, 20:02:12

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: because I discovered a brilliant idea I WILL DOUBLE

Right. So, if that's the only reason you double, it means "if you double, you think you've discovered a brilliant idea". Or are there other reasons that you will double? Reasons that occur often enough for your opponent not to consider "double by Herlock Sholmes means he thinks he has discovered a brilliant idea".

12. February 2010, 19:58:53

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

pedestrian: The leading player can double the effect of a draw, thereby bringing himself closer to winning the match. This can be remedied by not scoring draws at all, and I really can't see any serious drawbacks of this solution.

Wait, you do see that the leading player can double the effect of a draw bringing himself closer to winning the match if there's a double, but you cannot see it's beneficial for the trailing player that draws won't count? If I'm trailing in a match, and the current game is likely to be a draw, there shouldn't be any hesitation to double if that means the game effectively won't count, should there?

Of course, you could do something wild like "In the case of a draw, the person holding the cube scores half the count on the cube, the other player gets 0. If no player holds the cube (no doubling has happened) the score is 0.5-0.5". Which means that a score of "1-0" could mean either win by white, or a draw with white having doubled. Non-sensical if you ask me.

12. February 2010, 19:12:04

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII:
Draws are a fundamental part of the game of chess, and very common. Scoring a draw as a loss is a big change of the game. You might as well replace the rooks with diamond aces. It just doesn't make sense.

Giving both players 0 points in case of a draw doesn't equal "scoring a draw as a loss", and if the game is played as part as a match, it doesn't change the game at all. It simply means that draws aren't counted, and the match continues as if this game wasn't played. World championship matches have been played this way (but not with the doubling cube, obviously!).

As you pointed out yourself, when draws are scored as 0.5 there's an undesired side effect of the doubling cube: The leading player can double the effect of a draw, thereby bringing himself closer to winning the match. This can be remedied by not scoring draws at all, and I really can't see any serious drawbacks of this solution.

Btw., how do diamond aces move on a chessboard?

12. February 2010, 18:56:38

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: few positions ? many, many position in chess have undiscovered yet better plays ... not just few ... my strategy is opposite to what you think: because I discovered a brilliant idea I WILL DOUBLE, not the other way around. You may created an open tournament for every skill level but you may also restrict weak players, right ? So where is the problem ... Bill Robertie one said (two times backgammon world champion) that an average, very good player would have zero chance with the elite players in the match to 21 points ... these players also can double after the first roll knowing that they will win in the long run ...

Would they do it ?

12. February 2010, 18:47:51

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: Just because you can think of a few positions where you would like to use a doubling cube doesn't imply it makes sense to have a doubling cube. Having a doubling cube means the cube can be used at any time, not just in the positions of Alekhine games.

If it would be my doubling game scenerio I would offer doubling cube to my opponent after discovering a brilliant combination and he would most likely accept it ... is it so hard to imagine that I would double my score ?

Ah, so, your strategy is "if I double, I've discovered a brilliant move". That would only make your opponent look harder. He's then more likely to find the combination as well, and either refuses the double if he believes the combination to be winning, or taking it if he thinks he can refute the combination.

And those who played with him were top players, not brainking masters ... and he wouldn't offer doubling cube after the first move since he also was beaten by others. So, your argument about automaticaly doubling after the first move has no place here ...

Ah, and since BK is populated by Alekhines and players who have beaten him, your arguments do hold?

You may call me an engineer, but I try to see what the effect is of introducing a new rule. And the situation is that BK isn't a closed tournament whose organizing committee invited a group of closed matched players. Player strength varies on BK. There are many games between players of different strength. In tournaments, you don't get to pick your opponent.

12. February 2010, 18:23:35

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: I have a feeling Abigaill that we talk about two different things ... it's like a poet trying to describe his/her world to a mechanical engineer ... I am talking about having some fun and thrill, you about some robots playing chess ... I can show you millions of chess situations where my doubling cube would make perfect sense ... have you ever studied middle games combinations ? I was studying Alekhine games and believe me, had no idea what this genius was doing until the last two or three killing moves ... If it would be my doubling game scenerio I would offer doubling cube to my opponent after discovering a brilliant combination and he would most likely accept it ... is it so hard to imagine that I would double my score ?

And those who played with him were top players, not brainking masters ... and he wouldn't offer doubling cube after the first move since he also was beaten by others. So, your argument about automaticaly doubling after the first move has no place here ...

12. February 2010, 17:59:57

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: there are two guys who want to play chess for some stake, and agree that they can raise the stake during the game and if the opponent refuses to accept, game ends and the money belongs to the one who offered the doubling ... could you tell me what is wrong with this scenario

For one, this has no analogy with BK. In BK, you win, draw or lose. There are no other outcomes. There's no "winning by a larger amount". If you play a 10 point match, you get the same reward regardless whether you win 10-9 or 10-0.

Second, that would mean the stronger player would offer to double the stakes at the first move, while the position is still equal, instead of waiting till he has an advantage, in order to maximize his chance of playing for doubled stakes.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the draw problem could perhaps be solved by counting draws as 0 points instead of 0.5. Wouldn't that cancel all speculations about doubling in a drawn position?

Draws are a fundamental part of the game of chess, and very common. Scoring a draw as a loss is a big change of the game. You might as well replace the rooks with diamond aces. It just doesn't make sense.

12. February 2010, 14:57:41

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

wetware: thanks , I know it's uncharted territory ... but I believe, there is s a way to implement it ...

12. February 2010, 01:57:02

wetware

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: Unfortunately, I can't think of a chess equivalent for the kind of cube handling decision one often must make in backgammon: is my position too good to double? (i.e., should I simply play on without doubling, because I have sufficient gammon chances?)

This is not to say that I don't like the idea of using the doubling cube in other contests...I DO like it, even if I can't always clearly state optimal rules or scoring implications.

Once, while at the curling club, I was a spectator watching games through the glass as a friend began playing. His team suddenly found itself in a difficult, dangerous position. I knocked on the glass, smiled, and held up a doubling cube with the "2" facing him. (I ordinarily keep my backgammon set at the club; my friend and I both play backgammon as well as curl.)

He completely understood my mocking cube gesture. He smiled back, and "gave me the finger"...in a friendly sort of way.

11. February 2010, 22:25:54

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

pedestrian: no problem, you don't want me leaving the game after you make fantastic move and double ? that's fine with me ...

11. February 2010, 22:17:39

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: Sorry, but I don't think funny money would work for me. What happens if I win funny $1600 rather than funny $100... would I have to pretend I was sixteen times more happy? I just chipped in here because I thought the theoretical discussion was fun, but I think I'll leave it at that.

11. February 2010, 22:07:45

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

pedestrian: of course, who would like to play for stakes with grand masters ... but you and me, we can try to play pretending we use doubling cube ... want to try one game and find these situations for doubling ? Let's play for funny $100 ... would you ?

11. February 2010, 22:00:13

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: Hmm... I'll have to admit that it was those 'technicalities' that caught my interest, though

- I've never played games for the money, so I was responding to a situation where the game is a part of a match, rather than a single game with a stake. In that case, I suppose the stronger player should double - and the weaker player shouldn't have made the bet in the first place.

Off the top of my head, I'd say the draw problem could perhaps be solved by counting draws as 0 points instead of 0.5. Wouldn't that cancel all speculations about doubling in a drawn position?

11. February 2010, 21:45:24

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

pedestrian: it may turn out that doubling cube in chess has some hidden sense ... and this is what I think is true ... let's forget for a moment about all these Abigaill's technicalities ... there are two guys who want to play chess for some stake, and agree that they can raise the stake during the game and if the opponent refuses to accept, game ends and the money belongs to the one who offered the doubling ... could you tell me what is wrong with this scenario ? With obvious draw situations they just draw, and not offer doubling ...

11. February 2010, 21:31:33

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: Interesting discussion. In your situation, I would actually do the opposite. Consider the two extremes:

If both you and your opponent keep redoubling, the entire match will be decided in just one game. That means that you're just one mistake away from losing the match. More specifically, you would lose 26% of the time in this case (not considering draws).

In the other extreme case, if nobody doubles and each game is only for one point, your chances of winning a long match are significantly higher. I'm not going to do the math, but the more games you play, the smaller the chance is that your opponent will win more games than you. Your risk of losing the match will be significantly lower than those 26%.

In general, I would say that the stronger player should be conservative in using the cube, while the weaker player should be eager to use it. I even have a feeling that this is true in backgammon as well, but I wonder what stronger bg players would think about this?

11. February 2010, 20:56:08

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

joshi tm: I think when you are the doubling player the opponent could always redouble when he thinks he is winning, so if you double there allways will be 4 point at stake when you double on turn 1.

I doubled because my rating is 1746 while Herlock Sholmes rating is 1560. If those ratings are our true strengths, the expected score is 0.74 - 0.26. Who wouldn't double in backgammon if the their equity was 0.74?

Of course, ratings only approximate true strength, but given enough games, it's a fair estimate.

And if my opponent waits to redouble when the position gives him a winning advantage - I would resign, losing 2 points, not 4.

11. February 2010, 15:48:37

joshi tm

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: I think when you are the doubling player the opponent could always redouble when he thinks he is winning, so if you double there allways will be 4 point at stake when you double on turn 1.

11. February 2010, 15:46:06

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: it's OK ... you refused my double and you lost the game ... tada for now ...

11. February 2010, 15:40:25

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: No. Three weeks from now, I'm not going to remember there's one of my 300 games with a "pretend" doubling cube.

But I could tell you what my opening move would be: "Double". So, basically, all scores are doubled. Instead of "1-0", "0.5-0.5", or "0-1", the scores will be "2-0", "1-1", "0-2". Frankly, that doesn't do a whole lot for me.

11. February 2010, 13:27:47

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: could you try to play the game of chess with me, and pretend we play with doubling cube ? Of course when doubling is refused by either of us, we have to quit ... want to try ?

Andy.

11. February 2010, 10:40:02

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: as far as I understand, two kings and two bishops is automatic draw, and ofering doubling cube is a nonsens.

First of all, there's no such thing as an "automatic draw" in Chess. There are some blitz rules that state that if your opponent runs out of time, you cannot claim a win if you don't have the material to mate, regardless how bad your opponent plays; there are also some rules stating in which situations one of the players may claim a draw - but those are not enforced in BrainKing. Second, I'm not a fool. I picked a situation that's theoretically a draw, but does allow a mate: White: Kc1, Bc3; Black: Ka1, Ba2. Black is in check, a2 is occupied by his own Bishop, b1 and b2 are covered by the white King. Third, how is the "nonsense" part to be coded? A game starts with a doubling cube. At what moment in the game does offering a double lead to BrainKing replying "heh, dude, we're playing with a doubling cube, but obviously, doubling is nonsense, so I'm not going to let you"?

11. February 2010, 01:22:58

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

AbigailII: OK, here is the answer I: doubling cube is not something that I ( for example having rating 1680) am going to accept against the player with rating 2480 ... I just simply do not play with him/her if this option is specified ... but with playerhaving comparable rating I may be tempted to use it ... in case of tournaments opened for everybody, simply this option won't be available. But you may create with your 2480 a tournament restricting weaker players, and invite only these players who falls within the range of yours . And to make it more spicy, add doubling cube ...

As to question number II ... as far as I understand, two kings and two bishops is automatic draw, and ofering doubling cube is a nonsens. Of course there should be a necessity to review all the situations, but I am positive it can be worked out, and doubling cube can be used ...

Cheers, Andy.

11. February 2010, 00:56:21

Subject: Re: Doubling cube in chess

Herlock Sholmes: It doesn't make sense to have a double cube in a game with perfect knowledge, like in chess. With chess, if the rating difference is high enough, I will have an expected chance of not losing of say 70%. That means, I'd double on move 1. In each and every game of the multigame match.

And then there's the matter of draws. Suppose you have two players, playing 2-point match. One player wins the first game, leading 1-0. In the second game, all there's left on the board are two kings and two bishops - one bishop each, of different colour. The person trailing offers a draw. The person leading refuses the draw, doubles instead. Now what?

11. February 2010, 00:44:16

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

grenv: No need to compromise. Autoplay is an option. If I turn it on, my moves are automated where possible. I don't see why the opponent should care one way or the other.
I care. If I play a combination move in many checker variants, where my opponent has to play a forced move (easy because in many variants you cannot decline taking your opponents piece), why have to wait a week for a forced move, you already know is going to come, and there isn't a single thing the opponent can do (other than resigning) to prevent it.

I see autoplay not any different from playing two stones in connect-6, 5 colours in Logik, or rolling three times in Dice Poker. In those games, noone is saying "but I want to mindlessly push a button in between my opponents moves". So why would they insist on doing so in a forced move play?

10. February 2010, 22:32:58

puupia

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

coan.net: There should be also option to create games and tournaments that will force autoplay on, like now with autopass at gammon games.

I also fail to see any fun in doing forced moves, there really should be an option to do those automatically. In ludo there are lots of those always, which makes it quite horrible to play in here.

10. February 2010, 21:30:55

coan.net

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

grenv: Exactly what I was thinking when I was reading that.

I don't feel I have the right to try to push my opinions on how someone should play on others.... just as I don't think others should try to force their opinions on to me.

OPTIONAL - and when I say OPTIONAL, EACH PERSON should have a choice on how THEY ALONE want to play. If I want to play with autopass/autoplay turned on for my moves, and my opponent wants to have it off with their turns - GREAT - that is each of our opinions on how we want to play.

My personal thoughts is I come to BrainKing to play games... not just push submit on a website doing pointless things that have no input from myself.

10. February 2010, 19:28:22

Bwild

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

grenv: auto play in dice chess too....for multiple 4's and 6's

10. February 2010, 19:24:23

grenv

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

rabbitoid: No need to compromise. Autoplay is an option. If I turn it on, my moves are automated where possible. I don't see why the opponent should care one way or the other.

10. February 2010, 17:25:14

Subject: Doubling cube in chess

Modified by Herlock Sholmes (10. February 2010, 17:35:14)

Herlock Sholmes: let me explain my point more deeply ... there are known mistakes during opening phase of the game of chess. You can find literature on the subject. You can study. You can prepare yourself. You want to win 10 games challenge from your opponent. And the moment comes. Your opponent makes the first mistake not being aware of it. You know that in 7 to 10 moves you will capture his/her Queen IF ONLY your opponent will add a little blunder to the game ... if he doesn't he still may recover, and despite of this you risk and double the game. You sent a signal to your opponent, hey fellow, you better start playing ... chances to recover after the fist mistake are very small and the excitement grows ... will he/she find the correct move to recover ? Chances are your opponent will accept the challenge (who resigns at the beginning ?) ... and you find yourself playing for 2 games, not one ... now, if he/she won't find the solution, you will end up with 2 win games. How about if the opponent recovers (you play with an inteligent fellow) or YOU MAKE a blunder ? game can easily by elevated to 4 games by redoubling .... doubling cube can be used in any phase of chess game, not even mention the long and complicated end games ... probably the most beatiful usage of doubling cube can be before you lanch a devastating combination attack in the middle game ... try to think about doubling cube in different games like halma, checkers, reversi or 5 in a row while playing these games ... you will be surprized how many doubling situations you will find ... try it ...

Do you see that using a doubling cube ONLY for "luck" games is a nonsens ... I gave you only a chess example, but you can use doubling privilage in any kind of game ... I think it's even more exctining in so called open games where not dice decide of the outcome of the game but our own, human blunders, sudden flash of fantastic idea etc .... and we all are part of this ups and downs of our minds ... doubling cube can be used to enhance out gaming pleasure.

Cheers ,

Andy.

10. February 2010, 16:32:32

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

rabbitoid: I do not see doubling cube in this scenario ... to be honest I would like to see doubling cube in all of our games ... not only backgammon ... I ran into many situations when I was ready to call DOUBLE ... and it doesn't matter if this is chess, dice or 6 in a row ... if I can see far enough and can scare my opponent why not to double ? on the other hand it may wake up the opponent to start thinking more deeply ... who knows, we are only humans and what is kind of sure win in my mind, may prove to be wrong path. And I am sure everybody made this mistake thinking "I am already the winner" ... doubling cube can also speed up multigames challenges, shorten long ending games and simply give us a tool to "pokerize" our skills ... let's start thinking out of the box ...

Cheers,

10. February 2010, 16:03:42

rabbitoid

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

Herlock Sholmes: how about a compromise? autoplay, but with animation of moves? this would give Fencer a piece of challenge to program. After all, he must have his fun too!

10. February 2010, 15:27:07

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

AbigailII: Booooo, autoplay should be forbiden on this site ... what do you want us to be ? I enjoy moving pieces on boards even if there are no decision to make ... you forgot about a litlle tiny piece called fun ...

Cheers ...

10. February 2010, 09:32:30

Subject: Re: Ludo with doubling cube ...

Herlock Sholmes: Boring.

If Ludo would ever get autopass (which would make it barely playable - it's actually autoplay it should do : "hey, brainking, you're a computer, just keep playing my moves unless there's an actual move that requires a decision from an entity with a braincell"), having a double cube would spoil much of the autopass benefits as it does in *gammon.

OTOH, due to the lack of autoplay, I don't play Ludo anyway, so what do I care?

Autoplay -- the feature Brainking is missing the most.

9. February 2010, 17:04:54

Subject: Ludo with doubling cube ...

what do you think about this feature ?

1. February 2010, 20:12:16

Subject: Preventing people to sign up.

I'd like it for a tournament creator to be possible to have a list of people who aren't allowed to sign up. I'm getting really tired of people signing up for all the tournaments, only to resign almost all games in the first couple of moves.

30. January 2010, 10:00:55

MTC

Subject: Re:

It’s also worth pointing out that if you click on the game in the waiting games list, you can see “Score of finished games ([opponent’s name] – [your name], [game type])”. If you have played against them in that game type before, there are also links there to show all the games of that type you’ve played against that opponent and all games of any type you’ve played against that opponent.

30. January 2010, 04:37:20

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re:

Nothingness: Go to my profile, click “Finished games” and then “Show Pedro Martínez's games with me only”. However, this feature would be much easier and simpler to use if had our Last 10 Finished Games back. :)

30. January 2010, 04:03:14

Nothingness

i cannot find that feature at all. I'm not sure where its at. I went to Pedros' Profile and there are not links or any evidence that we ever played any games together ever.. but i do know we have. it would be nice to have it in the waiting room too though. Where would i look if this feature is currently available.

29. January 2010, 21:32:26

grenv

Subject: Re: request

AlliumCepa: Hey, this is just a game playing site... lighten up a bit please.

29. January 2010, 17:18:50

AlliumCepa

Subject: Re: request

@ Nothingness: Actually, we do have this feature available just the way you described it. Do you want an extra column into Public waiting games table showing your score vs those players? It could save some extra clicks. Is this your request?
@ Pedro Martínez: Your comment is not helping Nothingness' request. You were just playing smart-ass.
@ grenv: same as the above. What exactly is your contribution to request itself?

29. January 2010, 15:04:20

grenv

Subject: Re: request

Pedro Martínez: some people have an irony deficiency

29. January 2010, 07:16:32

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: request

AlliumCepa: Oh did he?!

29. January 2010, 06:57:46

AlliumCepa

Subject: Re: request

Pedro Martínez: Nothingness said "For example" and "if"...

29. January 2010, 04:54:29

Pedro Martínez

Subject: Re: request

Nothingness: We have not played any chess games against each other and I do not have any games of chess in the Waiting Room.

29. January 2010, 03:05:46

Nothingness

Subject: request

I would like to see a link to your record vs a particular opp if they have a game in the waiting room! For example: if Pedro Martinez has a game of chess in the waiting room i can click his name and see his profile then i can click "see your games vs him" after this i can see all games ( not just chess) I have ever played vs him and the results.

26. January 2010, 13:56:12

joshi tm

Subject: Omaha

I wish to play Omaha Hold em here sometime ;)

20. January 2010, 13:58:13

Subject: Re:

AbigailII: No, tournaments are sorted according to their deadline. Some tournaments start immediately when the maximum number of participants has been reached, even if their deadline is years into the future. I find myself sifting through those tournaments that 'start in the far future' all the time, because in reality they don't.

Hopefully, we'll get better sorting/filtering tools in the new BrainKing 3.0.

20. January 2010, 13:09:27

Subject: Re:

Snoopy: Tournaments are sorted by time they start. If you have no interest in signing up for a tournament that starts in the far future, you don't have to sift through them.

20. January 2010, 11:52:06

Snoopy