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  BackgammonBackgammon and variants. Backgammon Links You are not allowed to post messages to this board. Minimum level of membership required for posting on this board is Brain Pawn. Mode: Everyone can post
15. July 2011, 19:22:18 Subject: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon?  (A post of mine from a game while having a discussion about computers) Just how much of an improvement can using a computer make in Backgammon? In Chess there's no arguing about the improvement, but in something so dependent on the roll of the dice and the 11 different rolls and 36 combinations of those rolls and each turn multiplying it and the permutations from where to move one's pieces, it seems like it'd not be all that much of a help. All the same, I agree with you as it seems it might help in some way, but how much?. Even the world's champion would have trouble defeating either of us more than 60% of the time in individual games, but remember these guys aren't playing individual games, they're playing matches. Even 55% of the wins would make for a match win of over 80%. Count up your games won and lost in a couple of matches and see what it adds up to. And what about luck? I get real lucky against some of my opponents and other I just get stomped. Single games? Short matches? Long matches? Individual games with money bet on them? Does any of this matter? 15. July 2011, 19:23:51 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? Walter Montego: Hmm, maybe part of my question might depend on the actual position as it seem that a computer might help in some positions a lot more than others. 15. July 2011, 19:31:48 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? Walter Montego: It depends on what you mean by "using a computer" and "advantage". If you mean having the computer choose the moves then there's a perfect example in the top three of the backgammon rankings. That is, there's enough of an advantage that you'll get to the top of the rankings, beatable only by a very strong human player who plays the longest matches possible to take advantage of his cube skills relative to the much weaker playing pool. 20. July 2011, 19:53:27 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? playBunny: Is a person that uses a computer to help with his moves on this site play noticeably different from someone that doesn't use it? What would be an example of such play? Is it something noticeable at once, or is it much more subtle that it takes many games and certain move situations to notice or even have a suspicion that it might be going on? 20. July 2011, 23:00:31 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? Walter Montego: Easiest way is to play the game through a computer yourself afterwards and see if the player made any mistakes. Most players will make a few mistakes. in reference to your longshot vs safe... the computer would decide just as easily as any other move... with math. For example if you had a choice.. keep the game 50/50 or make a move that is 30% likely to win and 70% likely to give the opponent a 70/30 advantage... what would the computer do? move 1: 50% move 2: 30% + 70x30% = 51% Move 2 wins. The human may think this is a difficult decision (because the %ages are hard to calculate so it feels like a gut decision).. but not the computer. 20. July 2011, 23:08:13 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? grenv: Does the computer ever conclude that that the winning player made the most mistakes or the worst of them? What's a mistake? And what happens if it is the winning move despite being a mistake? 15. July 2011, 19:31:56 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon?  Walter Montego: There is no argument that chance is a part of backgammon - but you will get a wide variety of people who argue how much luck there really is involved. For a computer - they can look ahead 20 moves - they can easily see what the more common rolls will result (More people will roll a total of 7 then roll a total of 3.) 20. July 2011, 19:46:45 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? coan.net: Just knowing the common rolls and what to expect isn't enough. Sometimes playing for a long shot is so much more worth it than playing safe. Which way will a computer decide? I'm sure you've made a move that you know was not as good as a different move, but if your opponent doesn't get the roll to make you sorry for taking the chance you will win the game. So, do you go for it, or not? And this obviously has to take into account if it's a single, a betting game, or a match, and if a match the current score. 15. July 2011, 19:43:23 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? Walter Montego: And what about luck? I get real lucky against some of my opponents and other I just get stomped. Luck will always play a large part of success in games, matches and sets of matches. It's only when you make those sets large that you can discount the luck, because it will tend to balance out. In talking about the advantage that a computer's knowledge can give in a given game then it's really a question of how many errors the given player is likely to make. That's a function of their skill level, the familiarity of the game type and the complexity. As you noted, some positions are easy and the move is "standard" or "obvious". The set of standard moves becomes larger the more skill a player has and the value of the computer in those positions diminishes. 20. July 2011, 19:50:46 Subject: Re: How much of an advantage can using a computer give someone in Backgammon? playBunny: It seems like related subject to this is how to reward the rating points for Backgammon on this site. Single games seem disproportionally in favor of the player who is rated lower when his rating is more than 60 point behind his opponent. I am thinking that as the match length is increased it becomes more fair from the higher rated player's perspective and this accounts for why the higher rated players will play me even though I am 200 or more points behind them in rating. |
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