grenv: fencer explained in the bug tracker that it is something to do with the browser http://brainking.com/en/ReadBug?bgi=562

alanback: it's 2-1 now. however I clicked back and could clearly see 4-2.
My opponent rolled 1-1 and that is clear all the time.

At no time had either of us rolled 4-2, yet I can still see it in an old window.

grenv: It's been discussed many times before, mostly on Czech boards though. It's only a visual bug, the dice are 21. Even when I go to your game, I see 21.

grenv: This happens on many servers. Usually the dice you are seeing are your opponent's dice from his last roll.

Ok, I finally confirmed something that's been bothering me for a while. I see my dice roll and click accordingly only to find the dice have changed after I click.

This time I thought to click "back" on the browser and sure enough I had a 4-2 that had changed to a 2-1 after clicking.

Anyone else notice that?

Fencer, this is the game
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1178279

I'm looking at it now with 4-2 as the roll, but if I try and do anything it changes to 2-1

Fencer: if that doesn't seem a likely mistake, that's because you know what a doubling cube is for. believe me, if somebody reads those rules who has no clue what a doubling cube is for, they're going to come away still having no clue what a doubling cube is for.

Fencer: i still think that change i suggested to the first sentence about the doubling cube would be helpful though. right now it sounds more like backgammon and its variants are the only game that can be defined as a match by using a doubling cube. statements that can be understood in either of two ways make rules confusing.

Fencer: beautiful. thank you, Filip.

I've added it to the rules.

here's the suggestion to which i just referred:

i'd also like to suggest that the first sentence about the doubling cube be changed to, "Backgammon (and its variants) is the only game which can be defined as a match that employs a doubling cube."

as it is (saying that the game can be defined as a match with a doubling cube), it could be taken to mean that the doubling cube is somehow used to define the match. i'm a pretty smart guy, but it took me many readings of those rules and the playing of a match just to figure out that that wasn't what that first sentence meant.

Walter Montego: exactly, so exactly. i hope the sentence you mention will be added to the doubling cube rules, along with the suggestion i just made about rewording the first sentence about the doubling cube. i think together those will clear up a lot of the confusion with which those rules are currently leaving people.

i appreciate your tip on strategy as well. i will keep that in mind. :)

plaintiger: I just read playBunny's post about the double cube in reply to your questions on the BrainKing discussion board. The last sentence is very important,
Gammons and backgammons are not relevant when a cube offer is declined.
Keep this in mind if you are far enough ahead in the game that you have a good chance to score a gammon. If you offer a double, you opponent will decline and you'll get the one game point. If you just play on, you might score the gammon and get two game points. Playing on has one disadvantage though, your opponent might get lucky and turn the tables on you and had you doubled he would have resigned.

alanback: i think the term "straight game" would be clearer - since, when you get right down to it, a "single game", a gammon, and a backgammon each constitute a single game of backgammon (or hyper backgammon or whatever).

WhiteTower: I used the term "single game" to distinguish it from a gammon or a backgammon. The value of a single game is equal to the current value of the cube.

alanback: More appropriately, gives up half of the offered side of the doubling cube - if this is the first double, then the loss is 1 point, if the cube is offered from 2 to 4, it's 2 points etc.

Luke Skywalker: A drop in response to a double only gives up a single game, regardless of board position.

grenv: With the cube I do sometimes double prematurely against someone who I think will drop. But that's a different mistake to the wrongful resignation one. I didn't do a thing, I was just bearing off as normal and hoping to win a gammon. Getting the match by mistake is a useful win but it's no victory.

grenv: When you are behind, double to make your opponent think the opposite, then say, "let's get over this quickly to the next game of the match"

playBunny: I wish someone would do it against me, how do you guys scare your opponents into this kind of mistake?

Pedro: Aye. Don't *twinkle* BOP Do *twinkle* BIFF It *twinkle* THUD Again *twinkle* POW!!


In fairness to ZEROZERO: Take a look at your resignation pages in the German
and French versions. It's the same old hidden black message. I see it as simply more proof that this warning needs to be in red for everyone.

[Those links are specific to Pedro. Anyone else who wants to see should click any resign link in one of their own cube games and then change the /en/ (if your language is English) in the address bar to /de/ or /fr/.]

playBunny: Yup, this game:
http://brainking.com/cz/ArchivedGame?g=1164643
Twinkle and change color every half a second. And maybe a boxing glove should pop up from your monitor and slap ya. LOL

Pedro: It has? With the red warning and all?! Who did it?? Let's all tell 'em off.

Twinkle? Nice one. Good idea that man!

playBunny: It has actually happened again. Maybe the warning should twinkle or something...

grenv: "Anybody who understands the game at all would have tried avouding the gammon (or backgammon) before resigning."

Actually, with cubed backgammon being so new and resigning having always been a straightforward "This game (only) is lost", it's reasonable to expect some inappropriate resignations to be made by mistake. Call it foolishness, being a turkey or human nature as you like.

I prefer the latter but with this new red warning, if it ever happens again I'll join you in pointing the finger of accusation. LOL ;-)

grenv: Well because I didn't read the warning I don't really know how many points I actually lost but I know I lost the game.

skipinnz: you can't lose six points if the cube was at one.

grenv: It was for 1 point at the time but I knew I couldn't win so I resigned but didn't read the fine points so lost the match. But I learn't from my mistake

skipinnz: I assume the cube was at 2 points and you were stuck in your opponents home? If so surely you were in danger of being backgammoned. In this case how come you didn't try to avoid the backgammon? Did you think resigning would be a good way to avoid it?

Losing 2 points in this situation is only possible once you start bearing off. This is fundamental to the game.

grenv: I was prepared to lose 2 points but lost 6 instead, because I didn't see the warning.

skipinnz: If you hadn't borne and pieces off yet, how come you thought you could resign without losing 2 points?

WhiteTower: This is so true I resigned a game it seems such a long time ago, but I inadverdently lost the whole match because I didn't read the message. I am a lot wiser now and haven't used the resign opption until after bearing off

grenv: Me too. Still... ignorance is NOT bliss in these cases! Let's just accept that basic fun for some people is to move the pieces around, without the cube adding too much complexity. Maybe such people NEED to lose a match or two this way to notice the small print... Or maybe too much time without a cube has softened them ;)

WhiteTower: It's a basic part of the game which you cannot ignore under any circumstance.

I don't understand what you mean by "just for fun". The only reason I play here is fun. I wouldn't have fun if I ignored half the rules though.

grenv: Then again, some people will not think like that - hence the need for compromise. It would be ideal if we all thought this way, but you know how it is - many people play here just for fun and ignore simple things like that...

WhiteTower: What I mean is, if you haven't avoided the gammon yet, and you think that resigning will lose you a single point, technically you would be cheating by resigning.

It should be very obvious that you will lose 2 points if you haven't borne off yet.

grenv: All the people who lost matches this way were by no means fools per se, but I have to agree with Mr. T's paraphrasing:

"I pity the fool that ain't seen the warnin'!" :)

Making the warning more visible is probably the compromise that will separate the true fools from the simply careless.

playBunny: Whether or not there's a warning, it strikes me as a little foolish to expect to be able to resign a single point game and lose a single point before bearing any pieces off.

Anybody who understands the game at all would have tried avouding the gammon (or backgammon) before resigning.

WhiteTower: (LOLOL)

playBunny: Stop showing off and chew your carrot :) (or the mods will step in ... ooooh!)

Pedro: [[Sure you can write a message all in red. You just have to know how to use BrainKing properly. And a genius like yourself surely knows everything about BrainKing?]]

playBunny & Pedro Martinez: Let's just make sure the "stupid turkeys" reference is just a coincidence with Tayfun's country of origin ;) And who, of all people, points that out? A Greek!!! Anyway :)

playBunny: I was originally writing a post about reading the rules first and reading warnings secondly but then I said to myself it was worthless. I can't type in red.

Fencer: Thanks, that's all it needed. (Though I don't think "Are you crazy??" would be over the top when it's resigning a Backgammon. )

Pedro: I'm glad you're such a superior being, better by far than us "stupid turkeys". Those turkeys include Tayfun, myself and alanback so obviously we're talking about real idiots here.

playBunny: I understand your position, my position is though, that people should bear responsibility for what they do and not act as "stupid turkeys" who react only when they see something red. Bold is enough in my opinion. If I click buttons mindlessly, I should connive with the fact that there might be something these buttons cause.

playBunny: I've just made it in red font. But I must also kind of agree with Pedro.

Pedro Martínez: It's happened to numerous people and it's "only their fault". Each time. Time and again.

The point is that it's preventable. Trivially preventable. Good design doesn't encourage people to make mistakes. Good design takes human perception into account. This is generally the case here at BrainKing but here is one instance where it's clearly not the case. You may not have a problem with it but many have and many more will. Ask those who have failed to notice the warning whether they would have made the mistake if the text was in red.

It's preventable.

playBunny: What reluctance? When I switch to Turkish version and click the resign button for example in this game:
http://brainking.com/cz/ShowGame?g=1164441

I see this message:

Uyarı! Eğer bu oyundan çekilirseniz, tavla kurallarına göre rakibiniz 3 kadar puan kazanacaktır.

It's only and only Tayfun's fault that he didn't see this warning.

Fencer:

In this match my opponent was ahead 3 : 2. I was winning the 4th game comfortably and my opponent decided to resign. He didn't see the warning about points loss.

This was our conversation:

To: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:16:45
Subject: Re: Your opponent resigned the game (Backgammon)

Thanks. :-)
I don't understand why you resigned though, especially a backgammon with a 2-cube! You could have run to save the gammon. Another three rolls for me to get off and only two needed to save yourself.

You are reading a reply to this message:
You got it, congrats!
___________________
From: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:30:56
Subject: Re: Your opponent resigned the game (Backgammon)

I thought with my resign only the game and not the match! This is my failure and may be also bug for such type game matches.
___________________
To: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:34:12
Subject: Re: Resignation

You're mostly correct. Resigning itself only pertains to the current game. But you resigned a backgammon when the cube was at 2 and so you gave me 6 points. It was that which ended the match!

Did you not see the warning message telling you how many points would be lost?
___________________
From: TC
Date and time: 6. November 2005, 16:45:04
Subject: Re: Resignation

No I did not see any message!
___________________


I really don't like winning matches this way. It's even worse than winning through a timeout.

Fencer, please make the change to the warning message. How many people are going to have to lose significant amounts of points and even matches because this trivial change is left undone? I really fail to understand your reluctance. Andersp has made the change in the Swedich version and I am certain that there will have been no players mistaking a bright red warning notice for just another line of black text in a block of lines of black text.

Important stuuff should stand out. It's basic design!

The same principle applies to the match score. I know you won't move it where up it can be seen but perhaps you could see your way to making it blue instead of black?

grenv: The figures are from the list of established players. Median would be a better word than average though I doubt the average would be much different. I'm not sure what effect the total number of games would have other than making for a smoother bell curve distribution.

I was also surprised when I saw how high the averages were. Compared to any other site these numbers are silly. At FIBS, for instance, average players are around 1500 and top of the range is 2000. At Vog its 1600 and 2050.

playBunny: Total games played makes a difference as well wouldn't it?

Is the average, the average of all players? I'm surprised at how high they are, particularly backgammon.