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30. July 2009, 16:51:25
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Artful Dodger:

In reply to this:

> If the "carbon footprint" is a bit crazy (it's not scientific and it's nonsense.
> Carbon dioxide is plant food. The environmentalists treat it like it's a polution.
> And Co2 levels are DOWN. Temps are up. Where's the connection?

Usually when we talk of global warming people tend to get the wrong idea. It is a gradual warming that has occurred since the start of the Industrial Revolution. Here is a graph that shows what the anomaly is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Instrumental_Temperature_Record.png

From the 1920s to the present the average atmospheric temperature in the world has gone up about 1 degree centigrade. It does not sound like much, just 1 degree. However, it is a lot if we consider that we are heating up an entire planet. I recommend the full Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

The problem with global warming is not that it will kill everything on Earth. Carbon dioxide and methane are not mustard gas or some toxic substance.

Estimates of the effect of global warming say that we could see a further increase of 1.1 to 6.4 degrees centigrade over the next 100 years.

What is the effect of that? It is not like everything will get cooked or roasted. The problem is that as the temperature goes up, the rate of evaporation of water goes up. In many areas of the world the soil is not able to retain moisture the way it used to and those areas are slowly becoming deserts.

As global warming makes its slow advance, more areas will become arid and agriculture will suffer. The Earth is already having a hard time providing everyone with food. Advances in plant breeding and genetic engineering have made the growing of food easier, but global warming threatens to destroy about 30% of the arable land of the world. That means 30% less food, and by the end of this century the population of the world could be 3 times what it is now. 30% less food and 3 times the number of people is not a joke.

There is a lot of skepticism about this and some scientists doubt it is actually happening and they think the warming mighht be part of a much greater climate cycle. However, the statistical data do point to emmissions of carbond dioxide, methane and other gases as the most likely causes of the warming.

There is also a lot of debate about how to reduce those emmissions. Industrialized countries are willing to reduce emmissions, if populous countries like China and India reduce their emmissions too. Emerging economies like China, india and Brazil are unhappy with the caps because it means that they will have to limit their economic growth.

I am a chemist and I think that global warming is the product of human industrial activity, the use of cars and other means of transport, and the overuse of electricity. However, I also think that we have to be realistic and see that people need those things. The problem with this is that it is a politically charged issue because politicians cannot agree on how to proceed.

Those that want the environment protected at any cost want tough caps imposed. Those that have been lobbyed by oil and energy companies will oppose any action. Squeezed in between are the people of the world who will some day see their grandchildren suffer if something is not done. As always, it is poor people who will pay the price for the agricultural catastrophe that could happen if something is not done.

I think ultimately the only solution will be to teach people to waste less energy. We all love to leave the lights on, run electrical appliances 24 hours a day, drive two block to buy a soda, etc. I am sure that if we all accounted for how we use energy, we would find that 50% of the energy we consume is wasted.

We also need to stimulate companies and universities thaht do research into ways to reduce the amount of gases we emit. That means that the goverment has to take our hard-earned tax dollars and put them to work properly. That will always be a difficult thing, because politicians are influenced by special interests, and taxpayers might be skeptical of how the money is being spent.

2. December 2009, 04:40:35
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Artful Dodger:

You can rest assured that there are no ill effects next time you see some gas guzzler spewing smog into the atmosphere. I am sure all those car exhausts and industrial smoke stacks are good for humanity and for the planet. The fools who propose "flawed science" like global warming and holes in the ozone layer should give back the Nobel prizes they got, but then so should Barack Obama!

2. December 2009, 06:38:29
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Artful Dodger:

> And BTW, this is the exact kind of dishonesty I'd expect from someone who doesn't care for where the facts lead.

Isn't that what people say about those "climate studies" produced by oil companies trying to prove that carbon dioxide emmissions are benign? Much of the opposition to global warming reminds me of the opposition that tobacco companies had when tobacco was found to be a carcinogen.

Most scientists out there are well aware that statistical inference based on long-term climatological data is open to interpretation. After reviewing that data it has been proven that global warming does not exist. The question is: is pollution good or bad? If carbon dioxide does not produce global warming, is it OK to release billions of tons of it into the atmosphere? To me it is not a matter of whether the statsitistical data can be interpreted one way or another, but whether pollutions is bad or not.

If pollution is bad, how do you decrease it? Capitalism has proven one thing: the only language capitalists understand is the language of money. The only way pollution is going to decrease is to make it count where it matters, and that is in the pockets of those who produce the pollution. Those companies that oppose pollution taxes do it for only and only one reason: they are too cheap to do their fair share. It is cheaper to pay somebody to discredit science than it is to pay taxes. The tobacco lobby proved that decades ago, and today we see a similar thing with CO2 emmissions.

Even if global warming does not exist, is it wrong to decrease pollution? And if the only way polluters are going to stop is by taxing them, then what should we do? What do you propose then? How do you decrease pollution? Just say to people "stop" and hope that they will out of the goodness of their own hearts? In capitalism people do things only out of the goodness of their own pocketbooks.

We can keep polluting as if nothing is wrong. It is our grandchildren who will have to deal with the increase in desertification in the planet. Then let's use a reinterpretation of statistical data to ignore the problem and let's pretend nothing is worng. As always, it will be the poor of the world who will pay the price, and the future generations will deal with the consequences.

2. December 2009, 08:04:51
Bwild 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Artful Dodger: in 2012 it wont matter much anyway.

2. December 2009, 09:14:59
Mort 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Bwild: Is 2012 going to be another 1975 - Y2K thing?


2. December 2009, 15:45:05
Bwild 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
(V): I think the aztecs my have a little more forsight than the computer geeks.
their clock is more acurate and they invented basketball!

2. December 2009, 19:29:13
Mort 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Bwild: Mmmmm I better not go on about how polo balls use to be *cough* gathered!!

3. December 2009, 07:09:14
Bwild 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming

3. December 2009, 11:25:29
Bernice 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Bwildoh my Gawd....don't start him on soccer LOL...with a bit of luck he doesn;'t follow it haha...:

3. December 2009, 15:24:10
Mort 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Bwild: Seen something like the old Chinese version in a old Jackie Chan film. Something like it has become popular these days as one of those street football skills.

Funny that the Chinese were making paper from 8000BC and didn't tell the rest of the world how!!

2. December 2009, 15:24:08
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: Back to another tired subject... global warming
Artful Dodger:
> But don't expect the government to do the job right. The government is incapable of such a task.

I think this is where the problem lies. When it came to pollution, western governments didn't even try to do a job in the first place. Smog in big cities and air pollution have been here since the start of the industrial revolution. 200 years later we are still trying to stop the problem and our governments have failed completely because they have put the profits of companies above clean air or environmental protection.

If the government is unable to tackle the problem, who should fix it then? Private industry? They are the ones who have no interest in reducing emmissions because doing so will cost them money.

I don't agree with universal carbon footprint taxation. I prefer a targetted taxation. Tax those industries that cause most of the pollution: Oil, natural gas, tar sands, utilities, car manufacturing, etc. Then give tax breaks to companies that adopt clean techonologies. Those that make no effort to change can keep paying more taxes until they realize that changing their production methods and their products will be more profitable in the long run. One thing is certain. There will be inflation because switching to new technologies will ultimately be paid for by consumers. Somewhere in this we have to find a balance because failing to act means that our grandchildren will deal with a dirty atmosphere and the environmental and human health problems that come with that.

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