Jim Dandy: hahahahaha and the whole of Australia is laughing about it........it is a dirty trick by G Dubya as a snub to Obama.....and poor old Johnny isnt even the prime minister, he is only a private citizen ...hahahahahahaha

Artful Dodger: Country names change.... We even get invented ones like Belgium... Still, there was a population there, living their for many, many years.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Artful Dodger: Right...... So why in America, are the Native Americans getting back land and ownership of land that was taken from them by a foreign invader from another country?

Artful Dodger: So the people living in Palestine could not be called Palestinians?

.. and as for "They never had a government, never were an organized people, have no history in the land," maybe they were ruled, but many after WWI and WWII gained their autonomy.... The Red Indians lived in America before us Europeans moved over... Were they not a people? Never were organised...

From the encyclopaedia Brtannica..
History » From 1900 to 1948

In the last years of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th, the Palestinian Arabs shared in a general Arab renaissance. Palestinians found opportunities in the service of the Ottoman Empire, and Palestinian deputies sat in the Ottoman parliaments of 1877, 1908, 1912, and 1914. Several Arabic newspapers appeared in the country before 1914. Their pages reveal that Arab nationalism and opposition to Zionism were strong among some sections of the intelligentsia even before World War I. The Arabs sought an end to Jewish immigration and to land purchases by Zionists. The number of Zionist colonies, however, mostly subsidized by the French philanthropist Edmond, baron de Rothschild, rose from 19 in 1900 to 47 in 1918, even though the majority of the Jews were town dwellers. The population of Palestine, predominantly agricultural, was about 690,000 in 1914 (535,000 Muslims; 70,000 Christians, most of whom were Arabs; and 85,000 Jews.

And no history in the land... explain who the ottoman's were ruling and like in many latter empires teaching them to look after themselves?

Pre 1914 they recon (approx due to lack of records pre mandate) that there may have been a population of over 700,00 people living in that region under Ottoman rule.

Artful Dodger: Never ever any Arabs living in that area before Israel applied and eventually got recognised as a country by the UN?

.... Who did live there under the Ottoman Empire times?

Artful Dodger: so on the news when they refer to the Palestinian people...who are they referring to?? I am NOT trying to be a smart a** either,lol...I am serious...who are they referring to then??

I guess it would be too much to ask Howard to move to a 6 star hotel,much better diss'ing the incoming President,and spending loads of cash turning the hotel Obama is staying in into an armed security installation,.....stay classy GW

Czuch: Actually this is under work via the UN and various important people who both sides actually listen to.

Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?

Artful Dodger: http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html The complete history of the area/country known as Palestine.....

And please in full quote stuff I have quoted..
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

And yes, Palestine is a Latin word.. Like many Latin words which the English language uses or derivatives of. As we also use words based on Greek, German, French, Spanish, etc, etc, etc. And?

As a certain famous film says.. "What have the Romans done for us... Aqueducts!!"..

Charles Martel: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,


Okay, yes they are there, but just because I am here and I want to be there, and you are there and dont want me here, does not mean, that I have to let you be here and saying you used to be here does not mean I have to let you be here again....

Problem is really that the Pals dont just want a new chunk of land, they want the extinction of the IsraeliUntil that part is worked out, I dont know what else can be expected, but you never hear anyone saying that we need to help the Pals to agree to the existance of Israel, do we???

(V): How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them?

I never said "take land" I said agree to give them land, one last time, and then cease fire with full consequenses for the next to break that cease fire agreement!

Full consequenses are that you bomb the heck out of them until they cry uncle then you take whatever you want and make them your indentured.

Artful Dodger: well, you can label it anyway you want, but the fact is THEY are there and they are not going away,Obviously they are not going to submit or be cowered,and fighting will continue,and the birthrate for them (and most of the third world) is on their side, no matter how many Israel tries to import with those that have Jewish ancestry.Some one better start thinking strategically, because apartheid, mass deportations or even genocide won't work in this world anymore. The Pal's have world opinion on their side, and they exploit this. The situation won't just go away

Artful Dodger: You said ..."showing with evidence when and where this Palestine "country" was."

I have. Not only as under ancient names as used by the ruling force, but also as a name as chosen at the end of WWI. The Arab People were there before the influx of Jewish people after WWI. Israel may have a long 'history' but compared to the other races that have lived their before and after the fall of Israel/Palestine as a nation in olden days. Even if Jesus's day the area was known as Palestine.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestine..

Artful Dodger: I just don't just check Wikipedia Art...

I look at several sources.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

The history of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the invasion of Palestine.

Are you trying to tell me that all the people in that area at the end of WWI suddenly vanished and a new people came into existence filling the void?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/maps/Palestine1100tribes.jpg
And this ancient map showing Palestine divided by the twelve tribes of Israel.....

http://www.zionism-israel.com/Map_of_Palestine_1845.htm
And this map shows.....

And this about the end of Ottoman rule..
"In Egypt, too, British forces gained a new commander, General Sir Archibald Murray, and additional resources. By stages the mission of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) evolved from a defence of Egypt to an invasion of Palestine.

First, the Sinai Desert, with its sand storms and searing temperatures, had to be crossed, a test of endurance as well as of engineering for the troops involved. Access to water dictated what could be achieved. Tens of thousands of camels and drivers were required to supply the thirsty soldiers, while a water pipe and a railway were extended to the borders of Palestine."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_03.shtml

..."The region came to be known as Palestine in the time when the Greeks ruled the region beginning in about 333 B.C. The name “Palestine” comes from “Philistines,” the name of the people who settled in the narrow strip of land along the southeastern part of the Mediterranean coastline some time after 1200 B.C. (Take a look at this map to get a better sense of the area.) Today, “Palestine” refers to the area covered by Israel, Gaza, and Jordan.

The distance from Dan to Beersheba, the traditional northern and southern limits of Palestine, is around 150 miles. Two long valleys run north and south, one along the Mediterranean coast and the other along the Jordan River. Between these fertile farmlands are many small mountain ranges suitable for raising sheep. Deserts lie to the east of the Jordan and to the south and west of the Dead Sea."
http://www.americanbible.org/brcpages/palestine

An in Judaism 101....
"During World War I, the Zionist cause gained some degree of support from Great Britain. In a 1917 letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour Declaration. Unfortunately, the British were speaking out of both sides of their mouth, simultaneously promising Arabs their freedom if they helped to defeat the Ottoman Empire, which at that time controlled most of the Middle East (including the modern states of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as significant portions of Saudi Arabia and northern Africa). The British promised the Arabs that they would limit Jewish settlement in Palestine mere months after the Balfour Declaration expressed support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." "

I think it's safe to say you are wrong Art, and need to restudy the history (ancient and modern) of the area, including who named it as a matter of when it was under government from another country.

That's why Israel found it so hard to be recognised as a country when it went to the UN and declared itself as a country.

The following is the text of the Balfour Declaration:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Artful Dodger: .. Pre 1945 there was a Palestine where Israel is now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Here's a nice map of it in 1924

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine_N.JPG

Jim Dandy: Yep. They may then just put all of their efforts into building the country.. they do some good even at the mo.. just the bad element needs it's teeth pulled. It certainly is lining the pockets of alot of weapons manufacturers. They do like a lovely war.

(V): The Palestinians need representation that is supported,too many(Hamas) would be out of a job if peace and a resolution is achieved.Some think that's the same reason we've yet to find a cure for cancer.There is more money in managing the disease,as opposed to curing it.

Jim Dandy: And at the same time, seeing as their use to be a actual Palestine country, let them have a real one, not two bits with chips knocked off by a powerful neighbour.

It's so simple, yet no-one is doing it. Put UN checkpoints between the Israeli/Palestinian borders so no arms come in, etc, etc.... A bit of real security just like Israel wants.

(V): It's rather simple actually.Stop terrorist activities and acknowledge Israel's right to exist.That's a good start point to any negotiation with another party,it's called "negotiating in good faith",been done for centuries.

Czuch: How can they take some land if no-one gives it to them? They are not exactly a country with advanced technology are they!!

And even if the international community (who have been trying to get involved legally for quite some while... but a certain country keeps vetoing action) gets involved, it'll mean more so that the Geneva Convention will be followed. But this time it'll be an international force between Hamas and Israeli forces. Far bigger then both sides together.... hopefully.

(V): My point is that it would not really be genocide if you agree to have no grievance against me for any future retaliations to your unprovoked attacks!

Simply put... we agree on one last and final land agreement....and agree to not involve the other in any military or terrorist or other acts of aggression towards each other.

The world also agrees that any future aggressions will result in the forfeiture of anything already agreed upon, meaning all bets are off, and the international community will back the non aggressor in any and all actions against the aggressor!

Simple, take some land, be happy or die, your choice!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7815929.stm

Peace through ideas leading to a solution.

Czuch: Wrong Czuch.....

The Contracting Parties,

Having considered the declaration made by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its resolution 96 (I) dated 11 December 1946 that genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world,

Recognizing that at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity, and

Being convinced that, in order to liberate mankind from such an odious scourge, international co-operation is required,

Hereby agree as hereinafter provided:

Article I: The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Article IV: Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

Article V: The Contracting Parties undertake to enact, in accordance with their respective Constitutions, the necessary legislation to give effect to the provisions of the present Convention, and, in particular, to provide effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III.

.. It's called the Geneva Convention and was signed after the events during WWII.

And here is a list of those who have not signed...

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/gencon/nonparties-alpha.htm

I don't see the USA, Israel or the UK on that list on non signers.

(V): Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime.


Not if it is agreed upon that is a condition of the agreement, whichever side breaks the agreement will be wiped of the map, if both sides say okay, well then it aint illegal anymore

Jim Dandy and Art: The Israel army fully admits that they have killed about 130 Hamas... where as 660 (approx) Palestinians have been killed since this action began. ie 530 (approx) civilians have been killed.

And btw.. where are people to run to in Gaza? There is nowhere to go. Even certain elements within Israel (B'Tselem) recognise that this war is wrong and that no-one will win.

And the International community is putting pressure on both sides. It's no good getting Hamas to stop if Israel carries on as that will just start Hamas off again.

The solution being put forward is for an international force to be in charge of the border crossings to let aid in and keep weapons out.

This reminds me of certain dictatorships of the past that said if one of our people is killed we will execute a hundred of your people... and what happened to them....

(V): It's pretty disgusting how Hamas fires rockets (that they know will be traced by the Israeli army) from schools and hospitals.Cowardly also applies,but life is cheap to them,and they know their propoganda(and this human shield warfare technique) will be swallowed hook line and sinker by many.We can only hope that pressure is placed upon Hamas by the people of Gaza,and the international community,to both stop firing rockets into Israel(they hit a kindergarten yesterday,thank God Israelis are keeping their children home from school) and using the people of Gaza as shields,knowing full well that their fire will be returned to the source.The situation is very sad

nearly 600 dead to 4 Israelies..... over the last ten days.

And now this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

What a great war... not

Czuch: Instant annihilation... Genocide is against the law and is considered a war crime. Eg.. one of the reason that we went to war against Saddam and others recently.

And using nukes in such an area close by where much of the world gets it's oil..

.... M.A.D!!! anyway.. doesn't the Americans have MOAB (GBU-43/B) now?

(V): Okay, that is a big problem then now facing Israel, I can understand their reluctance to compromise!


Anyway, If I were with you in charge of a new negotiation agreement attempt, here is where I would go with it.... give the pals enough land to make them complete, I dont know what that is or if it is even reasonable, but I would try to get there, and then one condition would be, that is it, done, no more land no more nothing, and henceforth any actions against Israel by anyone would be met with instant annihilation from the international community, thats it, no second chances, no more negotiations, nothing.... i am sure it wouldnt be too long before we would have to lob nukes everywhere making good on that promise!

Czuch: You think that the idea of the extermination of Jewish people is a recent event.. Look back at the founders of the Protestant faith.

Jim Dandy: Well if a real deal peace plan and a real deal homeland plan for the Palestinians was drawn up and ratified by the Arab states nearby then the Hamas would look foolish if they did turn down such solutions.

And quite frankly I think there are many in Israel who don't want peace, as there are many in other supporting countries of Israel who don't want peace. If they did... why were so many efforts blocked over the years to sort out a real deal?

Artful Dodger: Iran has no borders with Israel. They don't matter that much in an agreement as such over the redrawing of borders do they.

Charles Martel: Israel is far from perfect in their handling of the Palestinian issue,many mistakes have been made,some real head shakers,but you can't make peace with someone who doesn't acknowledge your right to exist,and wants you dead,that's a real deal breaker.This "war" is understandable though,no country should be expected to turn a blind eye to being bombed daily.

I guess it seems like what they really want, and iran is a great example, is the complete extermination and extinction of Israel. That is the ultimate goal, and they will start by getting land, and then it will be something else and then more .... they just hate all Jews, they look at dogs with more respect and esteem than they do jews. Its hard to negotiate or compromise with that, especially if any of those compromises only serves to make you weaker and easier pray.

Jim Dandy: not in 67, and what exactly were their motives during the Suez crisis in 56? But when a country wins a war it usually becomes problematic to occupy it for too long, even claiming it as their own doesn't work for long, of course unless they intend to exterminate or banish the local population.Sooner or later the birth rate will force a settlement...some what like South Africa. bad spelling

Charles Martel: The settlements will be dismantled if (and when) a agreed upon resolution is made.When was this land taken by Israel? during wars? and who started these wars?

I doubt if I lost my money in a casino,that the casino would happily return it.You take your chances in war,they lost.

Czuch: Israel has given back land, but they play a shell game, taking more and creating new settlements at the same time

(V): I'm aware of the history,but I do agree that other Arab countries pay mostly lip service to the Palestinian issue.Hamas doesn't want a resolution,that alone is a deal breaker.

Czuch: No.. I think they will settle for a complete homeland. Which will mean some of their Arab neighbours giving up some land.

Not that hard really, just the sides are to stubborn.

Czuch: Both sides and those who have allowed the situation to go on for decades need slapping. I'd kidnap all the leaders and put them on an island (with hidden cameras) till they got their act together and made a plan that can work. Of course there will need to be comprimises and give and take. But the alternative...

... I lived through the IRA period, I've also seen the end of that period. Nobody can say peace cannot be achieved as the end of the IRA and related hostilities by loyalists proves it can be done.

(V): I think over the years Israel has given back bunches of land, and it has always been too little, where does it end, how much land do they want, I dont think they will ever think they got enough, because they really want it all....

(V): They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

Sounds like you would make an excellent unbiased mediator....

Czuch: It would entail all sides getting together and sorting out what is needed. A true Palestinian homeland... not two little bits of country, but a whole homeland.

How it may resolve things.... If the Palestinians have a stable living place then the call of extremists will not be so easily heard.

The other alternative is a continuation of the troubles. Even if Hamas is destroyed another group will fill the vacuum sooner then later. Like it use to be the PLO everyone talked about as being the BIG terrorists.

Jim Dandy: Hamas was formed in 1987, the problems started before that. They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should have been (through some land given up by their muslim brothers) a complete home land.

Also I find it hard to accept the devilling of the Hamas by USA citizens after the support they gave to the IRA in terms of funds and weapons. Also I find it hard for Americans to denounce terrorism after the many cases of interference and support to terrorist organisations during the cold war, just because the government in power of a country (such as Chile in the 70's) was socialist.

The "School of the Americas" as it was called in a UN report was citied as ""graduating 500 of the worst human rights abusers in the hemisphere."

(V): Who are going to be represented in these peace talks? Hamas are a terrorist organization, they are not a country.... maybe you can clarify exactly what these peace negotiations will look like and how it might resolve things?

Tuesday: Okay, so the wars started, and the innocent people who died, with their screaming and crying relatives, all in the name of your freedom are okay, but the other wars with other innocents dying and their relatives grieving all for the sake of someone elses freedom is not okay.... is that what you are saying???