Czuch: Great link Czuch. It's the only way the government runs its public services: badly. Every single US government run public service is bankrupt. And the idiots on the Hill think that more public service options is a good thing. What a bunch of morons. I hope tons of those fools get voted out next election. EVERYONE in the US has access to healthcare. EVERYONE. It's a lie that they don't. The Dems trade on fear. In the US, people can get surgerys FREE. You have to qualify of course, and you have to do some work (like applying and getting off your butt and following through to prove you need the free services). I have a friend who just had knee surgery and he didn't pay a dime for it. Obama couldn't get elected again if the election were held today. Now that people see how far left he really is, he is losing a lot of middle support (the biggest group in the US).

Czuch: its happening more and more
we have an acute shortage of midwives all over the country
its yet another disgraceful aspect to our health service

Czuch: Did you read it before you posted it And the daily mail is attacking the Labour party as such, as they are very much pro-Conservative.

But that's normal for them... very normal

Pedro Martínez: Ok well said. And I do see your point. I'll say that the first sentence certainly wasn't necessary to the point of the article.

Artful Dodger: Well, AD, if it was written by a professional journalist, I wouldn't be put off by it at all. But this was written by a doctor as a want-to-be scientific article, the goal of which was to prove that the mortality rate of American infants is not as bad as reported. To me, the purpose of the first sentence was to tune the reader to the patriotic frequency, thus distorting the whole view of the issue. There is no place for such "literary devices" in articles of this kind. But yes, maybe I really am reading too much into it, as in general I do agree with the point the doctor is trying to make in that article.

The CIA needs .... I'm disgusted at what is reported... sick!!

It is close to certain that the fires north of Athens are acts of incendianism. It's people who want to force the urbanisation around Athen, it's the usual procedure in south of Europe. We allready know who profitates, we allready know the logos of the companies who will be shamelessly present. Vandals!

I would not forget to question the mainstreem medicine itself. It is an importent factor in overboarding costs, the mainstreem medicine is hostile to life in parts, a pure moneymaking machine. I can sing a song about. Some people would prefer me being into greek mythology like themseft (although they occupy the psychiatric clinic ofthe olymp), because that way I would be meditating in a cell for many years. This mainstreem doctors almost made a murder of me, just to illustrate my anger. Burn Greece, you deserve it, because you know who owns the Olymp.

The chinese KP starts the trials because of the recent protests of the Uyghurs. We do not forget that the reason for the protests are acts of caprice of this ugly KP. The chinese leadership likes to outline that they have problems in the provinces, but the murder number one in China is Hu Jintao. The corrupt number one in China is Hu Jintao. Of course, acts of caprice and the monopoly on legitimate use of force is explosive. I'll dance the day the Chinese will be free again. I'm still waiting for the police u-turn, it's behind their back the problem, upwards in the leaderships. There is no reason to be violent, that goes for every policecorp, everywhere.

Artful Dodger: What gets me is her abuse of medical advances, your "70%" drop in baby deaths is pretty much what has been happening woldwide with advances in medicine, it's not a purely 'American' thing and as much is a distortion.

Premature babies in the 70's had far less a chance to survive then they do now in any country. That is a fact.

Pedro Martínez: "We're a nation of beautiful babies." It wasn't written by a professional journalist but by a doctor. And that first sentence is a simple literary device. It's odd to me that you would be disgusted over reading it. I'm not sure how you took that first sentence but I suspect you read too much into it. And the author's audience is Americans. I doubt that there were many that were disgusted by that sentence. Why were you so put off by it?

Czuch: Sigh..... never mind. There was a point but you missed it.

(V): why is there a crime called corporate manslaughter.

A crime is a crime..... you dont change a whole system, just enforce the laws already there to help.

Czuch: Again... I say, which type of socialism?

And if your private sector is so great.. why is there a crime called corporate manslaughter. Also.... why is it that your health industry is making huge profits at the expense of you the tax payers?

Efficiency can come in many forms and through many types of system.

And btw... looking and your countries declaration of independence... For the people, not for business to take the mickey and exploit your government.

Artful Dodger, Czuch: I'm not saying that the US health care system is of inferior quality. I just wanted to point out that the infant mortality ranking, as available at Wikipedia, for example, is not the same as comparing apples to oranges. I think that it would be better to mark those countries where live births are defined differently, but in general, I would say that the list is a reliable source and should not be deprecated.

The second part of my previous post came from something in me feeling some kind of disgust over the first sentence of the article provided by AD. That is definitely NOT how a serious and professional article should begin. The "patriotism" has already gone too far in the US. Too bad that not many realize that.

Artful Dodger: Sorry take a number please,, we will be right with you

GTCharlie: Well I'm moving to Antarctica!

and there's nothing anyone can do about it, the Mexicans will reclaim the southwest, and more, the Arabs will reclaim the middle east and some of Europe.Who knows what the world will be like in 59 years. for good or bad who's to say?????

Socialism , along with socialized health care in my opinion, can work well in small industrialized nations that have a firm grip on immigration,. But that nation better have a very strong economy. Britain , Canada, Europe, look at at France and its immigration status.. crow all you want now,, but the birth rate is changing, and so is the complexion of Europe and America

Ferris Bueller: I can see your point, and agree with you, somewhat.... part of it is patriotic, and socialism is against everything that made our country great in the firsts place....but it doesnt change the fact that our government is a lot worse at running things than is our private industry, more government is NOT the answer

Pedro Martínez: Sorry, I did not read any of your links, so i will assume they are negative towards the US health care system.... but even so, it is not the ultimate dagger in our system as a whole.

But I can agree... there is something wrong with that ranking, it is disturbing to me!

Artful Dodger: Thats correct... Jules has consistently made the point that the US health care system is flawed, and uses our infant mortality rate as a good example... again, we are not perfect, but I dont believe we are as flawed as some may want to project.

Ferris Bueller: Both Czuch and I have admitted to the US having its faults. No country is perfect. But to isolate one factor (a flawed one at that) to make a point regarding US health care shows the weakness in one's argument, not a strength.

Pedro Martínez: US's ranking on infant mortality as a direct cooresponding factor to the quality of US health care was the connection that was being made. I have shown that making such an analysis based on that single factor is faulty at best. It should concern all Americans that the infant mortality rate is high. But to conclude that it's the fault of the health care system ignores more likely factors. If all data collecting were equal, then the comparisons would have more meaning.

I wouldn't wonder if inside certain govts some people are thinking about faking a terror attack like the London car bombings 7/7 2007.

So we have now people standing up who want to protect their "right" to violate human rights (if I say human rights it is unqualified, not a juridical term out of my mouth, just human rights like the right of integrity). I think my own fight against terror and sort of fashisms comes forward

Whoooooo!!! :-)

Who's that American sending spam to the Scottish? Who ever he is, the signal he is sending out to people in rage is: look, here I am, here, here hello hehehehe

If you wonder about the fuss about the Lockerbie story, that is the background: Libya knows enough about violation of human rights of the organisation Frontex. Drowned refugees in the mediterranean sea = Frontex. Our govts who love their hypocrisy are in panic just now. It's over the bluff with moral high ground. Oh wait, the machine keeps rolling lol for good measure.

Pedro Martínez: They can't admit that anything is wrong with the US as it is now.  It would be "unpatriotic".  Besides, admitting anything is wrong might lead to (gulp!) socialism.

Czuch, AD: I think it should be noted that only very few of the countries ranked higher than the United States on the infant mortality list use other criteria for the definition of a live birth than those used in the US. I understand, however, that it is hard to put up with the fact that the noble country, or the nation of beautiful babies, is not ranked anywhere close to the top of the list.

(V): No Jules, you have always given some statistic about how the US ranks 30 something in the world in infant mortality rates

but if what AD has shown is true, they are comparing apples to oranges

I grew up in a region where religion didn't play a big role, in a historical context it does, but not in common life. I traveled enough, in regions like this lots of people find the Father and ask by them self, what is this all about, Jesus und church? If you happen to have found the Father, you'd better watch out. It's Ramadan, friendliest greatings to the Muslims.

GB is sending back home Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi and is talking of a humanitarian gesture. Do you believe that? The third world has justified claims toward the "developed" countries. It's about time that our govts get real. I promised to the Swiss people that we will be ashamed to be Swiss. I repeat this promise.

I don't think that GB is on a moral higher ground as Libya (govts that is). Same goes for Switzerland. Just think about the awful foodcapitalism of Nestlé, or the British Gibraltar partyzone to give examples. Stop the hyprocrisy.

Artful Dodger: The comparison on births was between USA and Canada. Have you a breakdown on there method of data collection rather then Europe.

And of the CIA World Factbook, produced for your government?

Czuch:  Thanks.  Even if Jules assertion was true, it certainly doesn't follow that the US health care system is the corresponding factor for the higher death rates.   Even so, it's clear that Jules comment is misleading.  It's a conclusion that isn't based on full disclosure.  All factors need to be equal and clearly, other countries have different standards in determining infant mortality.  Like a dentist who claims his patients have fewer cavities but then it's discovered he doesn't count children under 12 or patients over 20.  And he only counts every other tooth. ;)

Artful Dodger: Nice post AD... I never did challenge Vs assertions on this matter, but I always wondered how we could be so low on the list???

This makes a lot more sense to me now

gogul: 

If the Canadian health system is so bad..

(V): Its not that bad or is it a total crap. We'd like to know.

This was from Czuch earlier: I do not think that AD is correlating access with coverage, but [and etc.] ..

I'm really wondering about the new jobs profile of the NHS. Not only about the professions but also the regional coverage and allocation. It happens that distributions happen to be a game of political intentions ya know?

U.S. News & World Report claims that "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country."

.... incidents of stupidity I thought was a global thing, let alone a regional event.

(V): whAt are you saying by this. Lets start your point with regional wealth differences if you want.

Artful Dodger: Great post to chew at

(V):

Artful Dodger: oooooo pantomine time....

Ohhhhh no they are not!!

(V):  Nope.   Not my opinions.  Facts. 

Artful Dodger: You are stating your opinions are facts... back em up them. You ask me to do so.. so I can ask you the same

(V): Jules, I'm just playing by your rules.  I've stated the facts you just choose to ignore them.

Artful Dodger: If the Canadian health system is so bad...

... why is the life expectancy longer in Canada, and the infant mortality rate lower then the USA?

Snoopy: Ooooop north poor relations.

.... incidents of stupidity I thought was a global thing, let alone a regional event.