Jim Dandy: Cool.. learning new things is fun.

I second Sweden!!

Artful Dodger: His speech seemed to clearly OUTLINE his plans for the healthcare system.. He clearly stated that he would be tackling the healthcare system before he was elected.

A certain amount of problems that ALL politicians face before being elected is being able to have full access to the government depts.

Did you listen to his speech in full?

"But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system."

All politicians are entitled to their opinion... but they are not the CEO. Like that Conservative MEP getting dosh spouting about the NHS.. His CEO of the Conservative party here in the UK totally rejects his opinion as being based on fact.

So in fact.. he was elected on the outline of his plans, such is normal politics that they need development, as he has been doing consulting with people from left, right and centre which can only be done after getting into office!!

This is just the way things work in government, most democratic societies work this way.

Jim Dandy:  Could you share what is it that you find interesting about the Swedish system?  Perhaps we could go from there.

Artful Dodger: I would pay money to see Glen Beck and Barney Frank do a Vegas act together, or maybe a sitcom

Jim Dandy:  Without Fox we wouldn't have leaned the truth about Acorn because the other networks ignored the story.  Now it looks like the Census bureau has severed all ties with that corrupt organization.  It will all unravel for them soon enough, thanks to Fox. 

Also with Fox, we couldn't see Barney Frank and O'Reilly have a shouting match or see Glen Beck cry.  And all them smart blonds on Fox....Megan Kelly especially.  lol  

Artful Dodger: what would we do without FOX

Jim Dandy:  With google, research is a click away.  Oh and Fox has a great search database too. ;p)

Now all we need is a topic. 

Artful Dodger: Who doesn't,but their are alot of intelligent political minds here.I would find it interesting how they read scenarios other than the ones they have become so familiar with.Folks who discuss the American political situation have to do research in order do be armed with valid points.I wonder if Americans are willing to also research international political situations and lend their opinions?

I'm not trying to cause trouble,I just find the topics here seem to always revolve around the USA,while the rest of the world spins round spins round

Jim Dandy:  I like home field advantage.

Artful Dodger: It would help us think outside the box,and remove homefield advantage for some

Jim Dandy:  Well, someone else will have to start it  ;)

Artful Dodger: I know you're up to it.I think it would be interesting to see how our political leanings translate to other countries environments

Bernice: It's a shame, this site has such a diverse population,but the political focus is so narrow

Jim Dandy: I have no interest in discussing Swedish politics.  But if you can find others that want to discuss it with you, suits me. 

V:  Like all Presidents, Obama was elected because people like him personally and like the policies he outlines.  However, Obama was elected on more myth than on substance.  He NEVER fully defined his presidency.  Contrary to your assertion, Obama NEVER clearly stated his policies.  And he certainly NEVER outlined his plan for health care.  Obama is the master of ambiguity.   He still hasn't clearly defined his health care plan.  Even members of his own party have different ideas.   For example, Obama says that the goal is NOT a single payer system.  But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system.   He did not campaign on the single payer option.  In fact, Obama campaigned as a centrist.  He's governing to the left -farther left than his centrist democratic colleagues.  So in fact, obama  was NOT ELECTED by the people of America on the basis of his policies as stated before the election.

Jim Dandy: unless it is ENglish or American there wouldnt be any knowledge of other countries politics, and as Artful Dodger told someone on here their ignorance of american politics was showing etc etc....it would be the same with other countries unless you could get someone from Sweden it would all be the usual CCp that we seem to get now.

Artful Dodger: How about a rotation of discussion of the politics of countries around the world?

I nominate Sweden as the 1st on the rotation, those Swedes have a very interesting system

Czuch: Nahhh, minor adjustments are by nature going to happen just like in building or DIY.... otherwise he will not get re-elected. And if that is the case.. he deserves it.

"you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions."

How it happens here.. just certain over dramatising here is very unpopular except to minority groups, and they if they go to far....

Is it me.. or is there a bug in posting?

(V): correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong.... many times the whole room was standing to applaud the things he said, its just that is the private back room meetings, we know that what he says and what the reality will be are two different things, especially isf we dont fight it line by line, every step of the way.

Its not really that you have to be against any reform or changes, but if you just simply say, go Bam go, we trust you and believe you will do what is right, in all instances, well then you are going to end up with many unintended consequences.

It just part of the push and shove of politics, you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ideologies_in_the_United_States

"..... Political ideologies in the United States vary considerably. Persons in the U.S. generally classify themselves either as adhering to American liberalism, American conservatism or as moderates. American liberalism aims at the preservation and extension of human, social and civil rights as well as the government guaranteed provision of positive rights. It combines social progressivism and to some extent, ordoliberalism and is highly similar to European social liberalism of parties like the British Liberal Democrats, Dutch Democrats 66 and Belgian Flemish Liberals and Democrats. American conservatism commonly refers to a combination of economic liberalism and social conservatism and to an extent, libertarianism. It aims at protecting traditional values (especially on social issues) while promoting the concept of small government. The ideological position a person or party takes may be described in terms of social and economic policy. The ideological positions a person assumes on social and economic policy issues may differ in their position on the political spectrum. Milton Friedman, for example, was left-of-center on social issues but right-of-center on fiscal matters.[1] Several ideological demographics may be identified in addition to or as subgroups of liberals and conservatives with nearly every possible ideology being found in the general population. The U.S. has a de facto two-party system. The Democratic Party generally represents liberal ideals, while the Republican Party commonly represents conservative ideals. Smaller parties such as the Libertarian Party and the Greens play a minor role in American politics and are not deemed able to capture the presidency.[2]

The size of ideological groups varies slightly depending on the poll. According to a 2007 poll, 35% of Americans identified as moderate, 36% as "conservative" and 25% as "liberal."[3] In a 2005 study, the Pew Research Center identified nine typological groups. Three groups were identified as part of each, "the left," "the middle," and "the right." In this categorization system, "the right" roughly represents the Republican base, those on the "the left" the Democratic base and those in "the middle" independents. Within the left are the largely secular and anti-war "Liberals", the socially conservative but economically left"Conservative Democrats", and the economically "Disadvantaged Democrats" who favor an extended welfare state. In "the middle" are the optimistic and upwardly mobile "Upbeats", the discouraged and mistrusting "Disaffecteds," and the disenfranchised "Bystanders." The right compromises the highly pro-business "Enterprisers," the highly religious "Social Conservatives" (also known as the Christian right), and the "Pro-Government Conservatives" who are largely conservative on social issues but support government intervention to better their economic disposition.[4]...."

Artful Dodger: ... How are you going to fix problems if ya don't face what's broken??

And less then half the room wasn't standing.. I did see some brave republicans clapping though.... correct me if I'm wrong.

"It's enough to know that you are basically clueless on American politics and clearly you don't understand the US mindset."

If you are so sure.. direct me to a non biased site that can educate me then. People are not that different from country to country in many ways... Politics is not so much different from country to country.. I still see things used that date back (as far as my knowledge on 20th C politics) to the 1930's.

(V): Your ignorance on American politics is showing again.  You are 100% wrong, once again.  You're so uninformed it's not even worth arguing over.  It's enough to know that you are basically clueless on American politics and clearly you don't understand the US mindset.

(V):  Ummmm, standing ovations?   Did you not see that half the room wasn't standing?   The left stood up at every turn.   Stupid little puppets.

Ferris Bueller: The Republicans aren't destroying this president.  He's doing that all by himself.  The polls show it all.

(V):Translation:  "Now that I've really messed things up and alienated the middle and the right, I'm going to say a few things that will distract from my incompetency and make my opposition look bad.  We liberals are very good at blaming others. Most will see through this ploy but the left will stand up and walk lock step with whatever I say or do. "

Vikings: I thought Acorn was another government people.. It's lawyers.. well... enough said.

And as for the lies... where is your proof? All I hear is knee jerk scaremongering, just like McCarthy did!!

And wasn't that a wonderful display of justice!!

Vikings: Yeah right. A forgetful memory??

(V): Wasn't Acorn around when Bush was in power??

Bush wasn't their lawyer

What is your problem in having a cheaper healthcare system, that covers you better??

It will be cheaper - that is a lie
It won't cover illegal aliens-that is a lie
there won't be death pannels-that is a lie
services won't be cut-that is a lie
it won't add to the deficit-that is a lie
you can keep your private insurance-that is a lie


you like your health service then you keep it, it is amazing how you want everybody on it but you know you have your issues about your own healthcare , and everything that everybody points out to you is wrong with it is either "a few bad apples" or "were fighting for it". as for me when my baby was born with holes in his heart and not breathing, the specialist were in the room for him before he was completely out of the birth cannel,
nobody had to check a computor data base to see what they could do and my PRIVATE insurance took care of it all
you keep your crap

Vikings: So it's allright you being a Republican that Bush had a blank cheque book, and Obama cannot make everything cheaper for you guys to live and have health cover? Change takes time, supporting the economy takes money. If you think he's wrong, that's ok.... but he won the election saying he'd support America, and isn't it better people stay in work rather than lose their houses and jobs??
The phrase NIMBY comes to mind. it was invented after conservatives over here said we need expansion, as long as it's Not In My Back Yard.

And don't try and tell me healthcare was not a MAJOR factor in his campaign..

"A key feature of Obama's election manifesto was to address the unavoidable issue of America's growing uninsured population, making healthcare affordable to all US citizens, especially for children, and regardless of pre-existing conditions Currently, the federal government provides health coverage through Medicare (for the elderly), Medicaid (for poor families and the children of families that do not qualify for Medicaid) and military programs. US healthcare expenditure rose rapidly from 9.1% in 1980 to 17% in 2008, and this rise is expected to continue over the next decade, outpacing income and inflation. As such, healthcare expenditure will account for 20% of the gross domestic product, or $4.3 trillion, by 2017 if left unchecked."

What is your problem in having a cheaper healthcare system, that covers you better??

..... and as for the video.. No org is perfect, you get bad apples and idiots everywhere.

Wasn't Acorn around when Bush was in power??

let's see who has the guts to watch this video

http://biggovernment.com/

Last nights speech was nothing but a huge trial balloon, the fact is 'Bama still has summit ed no plan or bill, can anybody prove me wrong?

Übergeek 바둑이: Bush inherited high unemployment and the fallout of high taxes, 3 major hurricanes and 911, yes like all politicians he spent where I wouldn't have but I'll give him a little bit of a break,
Bush also had transparency,unlike 'Bama, with domestic issues, maybe you forgot that he appointed Kennedy to front the no child left behind
And the biggest deficit in history now belongs to 'Bama

(V): he was elected on the promise of giving everybody who made under 250,000 a tax cut, in fact all he had done is run up the deficit 4 times in 6 months as to what bush did and he had a war, and now that he has rammed this foolish spending down everybody's throat the democrats themselves are divided about him,check the polls, he has the second fastest rate of fallen poll numbers since they have been recorded, he will go down in history as the best presidential failure.
If a democrat is elected then so be it but don't take that as a blank check to do whatever without being questioned. democrats and independents are waking up now

Ferris Bueller: your kidding

Vikings:  What is the basis for making such sweeping conclusions about Obama?  Where do you get your information?

Vikings: Absolute rubbish. He was ELECTED by the people of America on the basis of his policies as stated before the election. Is there a problem with Democrats being elected? You don't want a one party dictatorship do you.. Moaning about a certain type of socialist, yet at the same time wanting the same.... Is that what you want???

Also.. Pres Bush ran up the budget deficit.. you didn't complain then.

Czuch: Like what? And are you saving that the average American is stupid, and that Republicans like yourself are smarter???

Ferris Bueller: It's basically sour grapes. I think I saw McCain even giving a thumbs up to Obama, over certain items he knew needed to be sorted. The health firms have been committing daylight robbery and people in the USA support that, companies basically causing the deaths and pain of USA people, and those hardliner righties support it.

Not nice to think that some Americans do not give a damn that fellow Americans are dying and suffering because of profit making.

Vikings:

> The man had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without
> anybody knowing what they are, he has listened to NOBODY, He had placed
> lawbreakers, hypocrites,socialists and bigots throughout the government, he had
> exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wants to go further, that is
> what the republicans are done with,

In this respect one could easily write:

"George W. Bush had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without anybody knowing what they were, he listened to NOBODY, He placed lawbreakers, hypocrites, fascists and bigots throughout the government, he had exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wanted to go further, that is what the Democrats were done with."

How quicly everyone forgets that George W. Bush inherited a surplus from Bill Clinton, and turned it into the biggest deficit in history. Now it is up to Obama to fix the fiscal disaster left behind by 8 years of mismanagement hidden behind the veneer of the War on Terror.

If people are going to talk about fiscal irresposibility, they should give credit where credit is due!

Czuch:

> they have never once given any consideration to republican ideas or amendments

If that were true, the American government would have been completely paralized during the Bush administration!

> the reality that most average people dont understand, is that there are many hidden
> things in the democrats plans, plans that on the serface seem like plans we can
> all embrace, but that when republicans try to add things to make sure certain bad
> elements dont happen, they get squished like tiny bugs by the democrats in charge.

And the Republicans NEVER did that when they were in charge?

> I personally dont know tiny details.... but you could tell by the reaction, when Bam
> said that "no ilegal aliens would benefit from our health care system" thats when i
> think the guy said "lies"

I imagine they could do what we have here in Alberta, Canada. Everyone get a healthcare card. Without the card you get no service. Illegal immigrants cannot get cards and tourists have to present travel insurance, or pay up front. That takes care of much of the problem.

Simply deny service to illegals. People will say "what do you do with the thousands of people who illegally enter to work and get sick?" I would answer: Legalize them all and let them pay taxes like everyone else. Then they qualify for healthcare services. Canada did that starting in the 80s. The government liberalized much of the immigration policy and a lot of illegal immigrants became legalized. I know of at least three cases and those people are now tax payers like myself.

> the democrats are not willing to compromise at all with many of the republicans
> concerns

At this point the only way healthcare reform will fly is if Democrats compromise with Republicans. I am sure that keeping George W. Bush's tax cuts in place will be on the cards. Republicans will use this issue to ensure that there is no rolling back of those cuts, as well as issues such as gun control, defense spending and foreign policy against the rising left in Latin America.

Ferris Bueller: The man had done nothing but ram policies down the American's throat without anybody knowing what they are, he has listened to NOBODY, He had placed lawbreakers, hypocrites,socialists and bigots throughout the government, he had exploded the deficit and debt to a breaking point and wants to go further, that is what the republicans are done with,

Ferris Bueller: As I read around a bit, it seems like "forced unionization" is one of the many republican concerns here, something that the dems need to compromise on somehow.... its not that we are against health care reform, its just that we want it to be responsible, and not just done to get it done.....

its one of those, be careful what you wish for, kind of things, reform health care, yes, have mounds of unplanned consequences because it got rushed through by socialist elites, NO!

..oh yeah too, what was that he said about our health care being as good as what they give themselves??????

I tell you Ferris, if your beloved democrats ever have the guts to put themselves into the same playing field as they are shoving down our throats, I promise to switch my allegiance to your side of the isle forever!!!!

Ferris Bueller: The Republicans have had their fun. It's time for the Democrats to govern.

Problem is, you can tell from his speech, that even Bam has some concerns about the direction from the "progresives" want to take on this issue... like he is really hoping that congress will pull this thing a bit more to the right, but that the "progressive elites" like Pelosi wont let that happen... even Bam seems to understand that a full blown soialist agenda is not what America needs.... but too many in the democrat party are simply full blown socialists

(V): Here is the problem.... to many on the right, it is just same old

He gives a great speech, says all the right things... you noticed when he said something like "we have to work together, compromise both directions" then everyone on both sides of the isle stand up an applaud. But the problem is, that does not happen..... with democrats like Pelosi in control, they have never once given any consideration to republican ideas or amendments

So to us, it is just a speech, with good sound bites, but the reality that most average people dont understand, is that there are many hidden things in the democrats plans, plans that on the serface seem like plans we can all embrace, but that when republicans try to add things to make sure certain bad elements dont happen, they get squished like tiny bugs by the democrats in charge.


I personally dont know tiny details.... but you could tell by the reaction, when Bam said that "no ilegal aliens would benefit from our health care system" thats when i think the guy said "lies", its just that I am so sure that there are so many parts of this plan that go beyond the veneer of this speech, many parts that need to be worked out better, and it seems to me like the democrats are not willing to compromise at all with many of the republicans concerns


Even Ferris can probably admit that there must be more to all this than meets the eye of the average American???

(V): I agree with you about Obama's approach to listen to all sides, but the problem is that the opposition doesn't give a rat's ass about listening to him.  They would rather listen to radical right talk shows & call him names than do what is right for the country.  The pres. now needs to spell out his plan for reform like he did tonight & stick by it.  The Republicans have had their fun.  It's time for the Democrats to govern.

... what gets me by the speech... Obama wants to make the health insurance market more competitive, he wants to end cancelling insurance for silly reasons (by those who get paid commission on finding ways not to pay out)... more preventive medicine.

What are the objections to this by Republican hard liners? I thought competitive markets were an idol of Republican hard liners.

.."more competition and more choice.... accountability.. Non profit option to keep insurance companies honest in the insurance exchange, no-one will be forced to choose it.. believe less then 5% of people will sign up.. self sufficient scheme by premiums.. "

And this is bad??

And yes I heard the "you lie" Ferris... ... Lot of booing at the bloke as well.

Ferris Bueller: I've not sat through all of it yet.. bit early before I have my second cuppa

You'll always get idiots in all parties. Blinkered people that choose ideology over what needs to be done. From what I gather Obama has listened to his party as well as the Republicans... those that want to work with him anyway.

Well one thing can be said no matter what.. He's being a better Pres then Bush because he is listening. Not to just the parties but those (such as doc's and nurses) who have working knowledge of the problems.

(V): You mean u missed one side of the aisle sitting on their hands or holding up papers through most of the speech.  In addition one idiot congressman yelled out "You lie!" during the Pres. speech.  In case you didn't notice,  those were the Republicans. They only care about destroying this president.

If President Obama wants to pass reform, he will have to do it w/ Democrats only, & they are not lockstep.