(V): Oh I was listening and those who were talking wanted him to fail. I think they are miffed at him being a democrat and President. Bad losing basically


Are you kidding me????? Where have you been the last 8 years, in a cave????? I can find you 10 news stations for every fox news that did exactly what you are saying against Bush!!!!! I never remember you calling them bad losers?????

Tuesday: and happen to be the type to give a hand up to the people conservatives detest.


Its called a hand out not hand up.....

Czuch: Oh I was listening and those who were talking wanted him to fail. I think they are miffed at him being a democrat and President. Bad losing basically

Well we over here have had our Government save banks rather then let them go under and put peoples savings at risk. Certain other steps are being done, to prevent 'this' happening again. It's cost the UK people billions, but the alternative..... ....

And what is wrong at making savings and creating jobs? There are areas you full well know that are inefficient... Is sorting them out wrong, as in the long term the investment will pay off.

I look at it like a doctor faced by a patient who has an illness that has to run it's natural course as no cure is available. He/She does his/her best to make the patient as comfortable and pain free as possible, care and concern are part of the oath they took.

The voters thought your President's ideas were better. And as commentated by those who watched him speak..... They felt hope at last.

Tuesday: Heck no... I can make $200 to $300 a night for a 5 hour shift waiting tables... I know many people who keep waiting tables even after they graduate college because it pays better than their new careers would!

But do you honestly think someone would turn down a better higher paying job just because they like serving people food so much?

(V): You are talking like you expect a perfect world... It ain't.


Yup, we happen to agree.... it aint a perfect world, our economy will sometimes slump, some people will lose jobs some will lack opportunity, sometimes the markets will rise, sometimes people will get a good job... its an ebb and flow.... like everything.... the economy will rise and fall, the earths climate will constantly change, there is nothing wrong with any of that.... especially nothing that needs us to go into a panic spending spree, liberals are all about panic and scare tactics, they paint everything gloom and doom and then tell us they can take care of it all, just give them a chance and they will save us from ourselves!

Czuch: You seem to forget the Iraq war, when liberals said they support our troops, but not the war????

Why cant we now support our president but not his policies????

(V): You obviously dont listen closely enough.... nobody wants him to fail, we just dont think huge government spending and other parts of his plans are the right answer.

Nobody wants our country to be in economic ruins either, we just dont think that is going to happen, we simply got way ahead of ourselves, and we are naturally correcting, where does it say that we are all entitled to unlimited growth and prosperity all the time????

Czuch: No. I'd say it was more Rupert Murdoch who made Fox news the way it is now. He is well known for creating conservative media with a bias that can leave details out, or play with reality.

The Usurper: Problem with your theory is, fox news didnt create conservatism, its the other way around....

Czuch: You are talking like you expect a perfect world... It ain't.

.... well, it is, but that's do with something else, but at the same time it's recognised it isn't perfect as well.

(V):

Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Not even close to what I am saying..... Its a personal choice, but dont complain to me or ask me to help you raise the kids you had that you cannot afford to have either! Most minimum wage jobs are for the young and undereducated, stepping stone jobs that arent meant as life long careers for anyone, they arent meant for married couples with a hand full of kids.

Tuesday: Only know one reason, experiance and education.

But this says more....

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_forty.htm

The Usurper: ... Fox news it appears, or at least the 'editorial' shows would like your President to fail in his plans.

.... But that would mean the USA would end up in such a state that it would make the great depression look like a boom period.

... Funny they want the USA to be on the brink of total economic ruin.

The Usurper: There is the old saying "Life begins at 40"... why... because of an old problem that the Jewish faith found that a certain amount of living is required before certain aspects of Judaism can be taught. For to try to teach before hand would be like planting a seed in barren soil.

(V): You see my point, about how many Americans think. It is so twisted, it is hard to unravel. And Fox News, the content of which you can now examine for yourself, gives you an indication why.

Czuch: lol Those are some interesting points of view you have. Ah well....experience teaches where knowledge is lacking.

Czuch: Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Liberals rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly????

Can you explain that? As it seems some capitalists rely on the poor being poor, some parties rely on their voters being 'uneducated' and 'uninformed' to get their votes, and what has the elderly got to do with it?

As for the downtrodden, why are people treading on them? Are some people that empty they need to tread on people to feel good about themselves, or would a gradual process of tackling the problem(s) be a better and greater idea.

The Usurper:

But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.


Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place??????????


Its just so frustrating to listen to you babble on about how poverty is because of lack of opportunity, yet you live in the country that offers more opportunity than any other, and when we try to give Iraqis a chance for more opportunities, instead of sending them food decade after decade, actually giving them hope to take care of themselves, then all you want is for Bush to go to jail, and whine and cry about the imperialist nation builder!!!!!


Its kind of like the example where no one breaks any laws, ever.... well, what would the police do, or the jails, what about all the revenue generated from fines and such????? As much as we say we want no crimes, at the same time we rely on crimes to make us money and provide jobs.

Its no different here, you say you dont like poverty, yet what would liberals do if there were no poor to hand out money to, what if there were no one that needed the government to help them, then where would liberalism be??? You rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly and the down trodden or else you wouldnt even exist, you have no interest in getting rid of poverty, you just want to keep peoples heads just above water, like a drug dealer, you want them to need you, its your only life line.

The Usurper: Dangerously socialist!!!!!!!! Each country elects their own government, from many party's. Right, left, central and oddball!!

Since we changed our digital services provider I can now see what you mean, as we get to see Fox News (owned and run by conservatives) ... The editorials are certainly and talk bits are certainly.... lacking.

(V): Add to that, that our major media are now owned by literally a half-dozen major corporations whose executives and major shareholders have a financial stake in not only distorting the reality of our predicament but also in omitting important news & facts which do not fit their agenda, and the result is that you have Americans thinking European countries are dangerously socialist while here, the poor are blamed for being poor & the system is praised for its "opportunity."

(V): It certainly stinks, and Corporate manslaughter is an accurate way to describe it. The government doesn't stand up to the lobbyists here because the lobbyists own the government. Many politicians move back and forth, from government jobs, to lobbying jobs, and vice versa. We are the richest country in the world, but that wealth is actually accumulated into relatively few hands. This trend has continued very strongly during the last 3 decades, so that, economically speaking, the Democrats are now to the right of where the Republicans used to be. The result is tragic for the working man.

The Usurper: Yes, we have National health coverage as well as the ability for people to buy private policies if they wish.... often though in cases of speciality, it's the same consultant, just he's getting a little extra cash via his private patients.

I heard that the lack of universal health coverage is costing 10's of thousands of lives each year.... I can't understand a policy that kills it's own people through lack of a basic service necessary to peoples well being.

.... One doctor from Africa came over with his team recently to the USA to run a clinic for those without health insurance.... why is such a thing necessary? The USA's current system is inefficient, expensive to run and delivers less service then many many countries less rich then the USA.

Why the waste? Can't the USA government stand upto the lobbyists and tell them to get lost and be ready for change for the better in order to save lives?
Or are the 'perks' that some get from 'deals' to much to resist?

... Something stinks about the situation and that some put money above lives of their own people, basically via lack of care letting them die. Over here we call that Corporate manslaughter, those responsible would be in jail.

Czuch: I was very impressed by it. You are a thinking man and you communicate well.

I would only say a couple of things, that I hope you will think about and perhaps research, in time.

A lot of the poverty that you saw in the rest of the world stems from the neo-colonialism of exploitation from the Western powers. America is now the strongest neo-colonial power in the world. There are no working standards or protections at all there. That's why our companies build there, and employ child labor, etc. We also destroy democratic movements (it is one of the missions of the CIA), replace them with strong men who benefit personally by our removal of the natural resources of the countries in question.

The other thing I would say is, I believe that other nations see America more truly than we see ourselves. They are those who are impacted by our foreign policiy They do not believe that we are spreading freedom or building democracy. They see that those countries we oversee become poorer & more politically corrupt, for the most part. We have overseen the countries of Central America for ages now, for an example. We've done some truly terrible things there.

What people in other countries may misunderstand, however, is that the American people themselves do not perceive their country as corrupt, as you rightly said. They feel we are doing good in the world. If they didn't, they would demand things change. The hard part, from my perspective, is getting the American people to see what a bad world citizen our nation has become. As an American, I feel that to be my duty, as unpopular & unthankful a task as it is.

(V): A living wage being one you can afford to live on decently, we have no guarantee of that here. It certainly isn't written into any laws, nor does the government seek to force companies to pay more, since the unions were gutted by Reagan, etc. We do have what is called a "minimum wage," which stands at $7.25 an hour, I think, or something close to it. But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.

We also have a small tax credit for children, which some receive once each year at tax time. Sure it helps, but not much. What we don't have, that you do (unless I am mistaken) is national health coverage. Many millions in the U.S.A. don't have insurance. They are one accident or illness removed from the kind of debt it is very hard, sometimes impossible, to recover from. Not to mention that, having no insurance, the care itself will be substandard for an long-term ailment.

You speak of the stupid bankers. It is the same here. In fact, the bankers in England & the bankers in the U.S.A. are often the same people! Laws are always going in effect to protect the bankers here, rarely if ever the citizens. And the credit card companies, etc. That's why I'm not a Democrat, though I spend more time here debating Republicans. For example, our new Vice President, while a senator, pushed credit card laws through giving the companies more power to raise interest rates without reason, etc.

We have no cash incentives based on savings, at least not built into the government system. My brother spent some time in Germany in the '80s, said at that time the poor were much better off than the poor here. No one was destitute. Here, we have homeless veterans living on the streets, etc.

The Usurper: Don't they have a scheme like here in the UK? It was recognised that to encourage people to want to get back to work and come off benefits that a guarantee of a liveable wage was a must. So we got minimum wage laws, some have tried (employers) to get round this, but our Gov is giving those companies a very hard slapped wrist and telling them to stop... now.

Plus we have Workings Family Tax Credit, a scheme that tops up wages based on a guaranteed minimum earnings level, dependent on being able to show that you have a family and that your job (or jobs) do not meet a certain level of pay that a family would need to live on.

There are even schemes to encourage people to go from part time work to full time, and unless the law is changed, a cash incentive based on the savings the benefits people have saved during your period of part time employment.

But in this state of economy thanks to stupid bankers who it has been shown (over here in the UK) that they ignored advice given by their own risk management head men.... One company even fired the guy giving the warning, then replaced him with a guy who had no knowledge or background in risk assessment.

RBS (a bank) have been told that the contractual bonuses they were going to pay out were not acceptable and an insult to the British people (seeing as we bailed them out) ... So instead over £2 billion in bonuses to people who have screwed up, now they get the contractual minimum... and in shares only.. no cash.

Czuch: Trying to convince you of this self-evident truth is like trying to tell you what's behind a door you refuse to open. There simply is no way. But all doors are opened eventually, often from the other side.

Obama visits Canada thursday,these are some of the issues on the plate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFVLXK1uWTM

Czuch: Speak of the devil. :o)

Give it a bit more time....opportunity slips away as we speak...

The Usurper:

Poverty has more to do with lack of opportunity than with lack of initiative.


Find me a country with more opportunity than the US, and I might have to listen to you for a second...

Tuesday: I found that verse in the Bible. It is in 1st Czuch, Chapter 8, verse 9.

Tuesday: According to Sam. He says selfishness is the key to the Kingdom. Just look (he tells me) at how God blesses the selfish on Earth!

Tuesday: Just got back from talking with Sam. He says all the liberals are in forced labor in hell to make up for their laziness on earth. The conservatives are busy in heaven carving pieces of gold out of the streets & prying jewels from walls. Now I know.

Tuesday: That's information I could use. I'll ask him. lol

Tuesday: What does Sam Kinison know, anyway? :o)

...the argument is borne out by the facts:

Poverty has more to do with lack of opportunity than with lack of initiative.

Czuch: Cute, but yes, there is an element of truth in that. Only thing, Hillary Clinton is a part of it. It transcends political party. :o)

...the jobs available actually paid a "living wage," i.e., one sufficient to support a household. It used to be the case. Does no one here question, why has this changed?

Czuch: You know, one of the European countries on certain low risk crimes has the offender work as per normal during the week and has to goto jail at the weekends!! Part of their earnings goes to repay their debt.

Over here, the rules regarding unemployment benefit (or job seekers allowance as they call it now) is that you have to prove you are actually looking for a job. They expect you to keep records of you job searching And if after so long you've not got a job then you are expected to attend courses to improve your chances or lose a percentage of your benefit. You can also apply to get specific training for a certain job (such as specialist driving courses (HGV and Forklift), refresher courses for those who want to get back into a career they haven't done for a while, etc, etc.

But this is just what consecutive Conservative and Labour governments have implemented and added onto to cut down on those who in the past thought it was easy money!!

(V): Im not talking about them being on the streets or not, although I can agree that jail alone, without rehab and training is no good.

But I dont want to pay them welfare either, after they have been the ones to choose a life of crime and drugs over hard productive work. i would prefer, if my money is to pay for anything, to put them in jail for rehab and training and they get out to a job of some sort, to me that is the best form of welfare!

But to give people money and stamps for food and extending insurance, without much control over how they are used etc, that doesnt make sense to anyone except the good ol government that liberals so hoipefully support.

Why not, after unemployment insurance runs out, and you have not found a new job, then some money for retraining or the like, but to keep throwing good money away, it just doesnt make any sense.

Don't get me wrong Czuch, I believe dangerous people should be kept of the streets until they are 'safe'... But imprisonment has become such a business in the USA, with (or so I am led to believe) not much is done to redirect the inmates, or fix the problems, or at least start the person on a proper program to fix things.