The Usurper:Is the life of a child who dies for lack of health care as meaningless to you as the book in which you profess to believe? Or did I take those scriptures out of context? If so, in what context should I understand them?.....

A plea from pity is not a sound argument.  And the Bible has nothing to do with public policy.  Even atheists can weigh in on public policy.

.... a more effective, more just, more humane & equitable ...
According to you.  I don't believe that your socialist ideas can deliver on what you suggest.

Bernice: Truth is, it's not really free.  People are paying for it.  Someone has to.  But I do agree with you that people needing care should be able to get it regardless of ability to pay.  We do have free clinics in the US and in some States, hospitals cannot turn away patients because of an inability to pay. 

One of the biggest factors for lowering health care costs is for people to take care of themselves.  Exercise, watch what one eats, and live a healthy life.  People who smoke but want free health care should have to quit smoking or pay their own way.  But that gets into a slippery slope into other life style issues and it's not likely to become a policy.  I'm a tad overweight and there is no excuse for it when I have all the available info for staying healthy.  I have several gyms close by, a beautiful walking path very close to my home, and a treadmill in my garage.  If my weight is causing me problems (it will if I don't get off my butt) then I should do something about it.  Living healthy costs us nothing.  Yet people often don't put for the effort.  I'm for personal responsibility first.  Government help as a last resort and then only very temporary.  And the Federal govt is incompetent.  They should guard the boarders, protect the constitution, and stay out of our lives.

Artful Dodger: Is the life of a child who dies for lack of health care as meaningless to you as the book in which you profess to believe? Or did I take those scriptures out of context? If so, in what context should I understand them?

I have not argued on this board for a replacement of capitalism with socialism. I have rather argued for a more effective, more just, more humane & equitable mixture of the two. You don't seem to understand, either, that our current system is closer to a mercantilist system than a true capitalist one, in many respects. But I can't get into that. Czuch would call it "babble" and you would call it "meaningless." Suffice to say, we have different perspectives & different values.

Ah...and I was hoping to sneak in here & make a couple of quick unchallenged posts. I have a screaming headache and I planned on meditating on Tuesday's new pic to ease the pain. lol :o)

Bernice:

Bernice:I don't know that I agree that free health care is a God given "right."  I do think it's our God ordained responsibility to care for the needy.  But as you say, there are those trollops that suck off the system and contribute nothing.  They have no right to care.  Some people think that by virtue of being a human being, they are entitled to care - free of charge. But what if everyone wnated free health care but no one wanted to contribute to the costs?  An impossible idea. 

I don't know much about the system in your country but will check into it to see what I can find.  If you are happy with it, that say something positive about the system.  But as you point out, there are downsides (and of course I am not saying the US system is the best it can be nor am I saying it's where it should be.  I think there is much room for improvement.

What is the standard of care in your country with respect to waiting etc?  My neighbor just got a kidney transplant.  She had been on home dialysis for a while and then a compatible kidney came through.  How long do people wait for critical care and screening  tests?  Here it's not long at all.  But I know in England, there are long waiting lists for some types of care.  In Canada, and MRI test takes many months.

Bernice: BUT by the same token....no ONE person will be turned away from hospital here becuase they don't have health insurance.....all are equal when it comes to that.....even a visiting american with no ins. can get free treatment.

Artful Dodger: yes they do have problems with their health care as does australia. we have poeple going to india for ops cause it is cheaper to fly there, have the op , fly home and be dead in a month, than it is to wait for 3 years for the op in australia and be dead in 6 months ROFL.......

Artful Dodger: In australia we have free education, free health care, nearly $600 per fortnight for the bludgers on the dole who refuse to go to work...all they have to do is apply for 2 jobs per week( I think it is) to collect that. Everybody gets paid to have babies...$2000 per child so you have the trollops of society having heaps of kids and then when the money has gone on drugs etc the Govt. looks after the kids with a payment every month - called "Child support"...I have a feeling that it depends on how much you have....rich get nothing , poor get it all. They dont have to work for any of this.

As you say free health care is a meaningless point when it is a god given right.....people expect it and really kick up when it isnt received.

I think either New Zealand or Australia is the Leader in social services and sets examples to the rest of the world.....not that they are good examples, when the bludgers abuse it.

The Usurper:  Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me.  I just skip them.

It is a meaningless point that you offer because it's only ONE thing in a socialist system.  Free health care doesn't equate to a high quality of life.  Besides that, the health care system in England leaves a lot to be desired.  It's riddled with problems. The only benefit is that those that don't pay into the system don't have to worry about paying for care.  But that care isn't always the best and it isn't timely care.  Doesn't Canada have a similar health care system?  Odd isn't it that many Canadian citizens come to the USA for care.  There are long waiting lines in Canada.  There is a shortage of doctors and nurses.  And just try to get an MRI in Canada.  One man got tired of waiting for his "turn" and registered as "Fido" in an animal hospital because they had such a machine and the waiting list wasn't as long. 

There may be some small advantages in Englands health care system but it doesn't measure up to a free-market approach to health care.  Perhaps the US system isn't perfect, but it's not an improvement to go to a free health care system.  That is more than a step backwards.

Artful Dodger: It isn't meaningless to those who suffer from a lack of it.

"Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."
-- Matthew 18:14

"I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
-- Ezekiel 36:26

The Usurper: Getting ahead, having opportunities to improve one's social and financial condition, becoming independent, is a far cry from simply getting free health care.  You cannot point to any country or system that has a track record of lifting millions of people from poverty to prosperity like a free market economy.  Only a free market system has a history that can do that.  Redistributing the wealth does not lift people out of poverty.  And you can't show any socialist system that has done so.  Pointing to free health care is a meaningless point. 

...we have a nation which is spiritually on its last legs.

Artful Dodger:

"I'm still waiting for anyone to give a good example of where socialism has worked for the average man."

Hasn't one good example been discussed just today? In England, a national health care system protects the lives & health of all citizens. For the average joe, I would imagine life & health to be a good thing. Here in America, national health care is considered (by some) an evil, a form of "creeping socialism." As a result, many average joes & their families suffer, some even to the point of death. I would say the average joe is better off with a national health care system, whatever label you might choose to stigmatize it.

Czuch:

"dont sell yourself so short"

Sell myself short? Tuesday & (V) have plenty to teach me, and I'm all ears. They have plenty to teach you also, if you'd listen. Whether I and they agree in all particulars about all things is irrevelant. They are exceptionally enlightened. I took the liberty of going back over some of Tuesday's posts here before I resurfaced. I was impressed! Her words reveal a wisdom I frankly did not previously know she possessed. And what's more, she was standing tall in a furnace, going it alone. As for (V), he is a breath of fresh air. He demonstrates to me with every post great subtlety of mind & understanding, and, thank goodness, does not bring to the table a boxed message stamped "Made in the U.S.A" on the lid.

On the other hand, Czuch, you contend that there are "basically just two political philosophies, at least here in the US." You are mistaken, and to me such a notion indicates a rigidity of thinking hazardous to your mental health, somewhat in the way brainwashing is hazardous. I don't say this to insult you. It applies to us all, if we aren't careful, and to the extent that we allow our minds to be manipulated by those with the motive, means & opportunity to do so.

(V): Agreed, a fluid mind is even a prerequisite. Charles Finney, the 19th century revivalist, said (paraphrase): "True Christian consistency lies in modifying one's opinion as often and as quickly as new light comes, and in no case defending a belief which new facts demonstrate cannot be true." His views were somewhat controversial. :o)

Tuesday: You are right. I was thinking volume as well as quality. Jim Dandy & Anastasia always have very good things to say. :o)

Czuch:It translates this way:  what I consider to be a better understanding of the world & politics, because it agrees with my view.

  Its another way of saying that you lack understanding of the world and politics.  It's a stealth.  It's the dreaded ad hominem again. 

I'm still waiting for anyone to give a good example of where socialism has worked for the average man.  In what socialist country has the socialist policies allowed the averege "joe" to "get ahead?"  Only a free-market system can do that.

How soon people have forgotten the economic lessons we learned in the Regan era.  Obama's policies will fail because they are built on false premises. 

The Usurper:

It's nice to come on and see able defenders of what I consider to be a better understanding of the world & politics,


Are you kidding me??? With basically just two political philosophies, at least here in the US, even a monkey can get lucky and happen to agree with you from time to time, I think you give them too much credit though if you think they have the some of the same beliefs as you and for the same reasons dont sell yourself so short

I am no Christian fundamentalist, but I share a few of the same views with them but for very different reasons, and just because we might happen to vote the same way, I have no illusions that they are on the same plane, so to speak....

Tuesday:

I mean.. I'm 43 and just being taught new things by someone on breathing!!

The Usurper: That's because their cup is full.

I find a fluid mind is best.

It's nice to come on and see able defenders of what I consider to be a better understanding of the world & politics, not to mention a reflection of larger hearts. I mean the posts of (V) and Tuesday. You guys are awesome. Keep it up! :o)

(V): "...a certain amount of living is required before certain aspects of Judaism can be taught. For to try to teach before hand would be like planting a seed in barren soil."

That is an excellent point. And it presupposes something else, that the first 40 years weren't spent in a stupor, but rather that the mind had been daily exercised through broad study and contemplation. One man I know says that trying to discuss politics with most of his fellow Americans is a fruitless endeavor. Before any meaningful discussion can take place, he first recommends they spend 20 years reading every book they can get their hands on, from every political persuasion, right, left, and center, and couple that with study of history, philosophy, theology, etc., just whatever is needed to get some kind of handle on the real world. Then perhaps an intelligent discussion that may lead somewhere constructive might ensue. Needless to say, most don't appreciate his recommendation. :o)

Tuesday: quite a few

Tuesday: it's not a PBS show,not sure what channel carries it in the USA, it's the funniest show Canada has produced since Kids in the hall and SCTV.......................I just noticed Direct tv in the states has begun airing it

Tuesday: I despise Red Green,but The Trailor Park Boys is excellent..............and both shows are Canadian

Tuesday: .most cop shows are so predictable..
yeah,but I STILL giggle my ass off everytime someone gets maced AND tazed :)

Tuesday: Then it must be our use of language So relaxed over here

Tuesday: 30 Rock is good,but I never keep track of when certain programs are on,except sports.I think all the white noise of nightly watching 4 hours of politicians jabbering at eachother finally caught up with me after 8 years.I've always been interested in Lincoln,I thoroughly enjoyed the PBS presentatio called "Finding Lincoln" last week, Charlie Rose also presents a calm mature discussion

Tuesday: Healthy humour.... Sometimes involving fake accidents of the bloody kind.

But then you have graphic progs like CSI

Tuesday: I'm becoming more and more a PBS viewer,I'm fed up with braindead programming.

Tuesday: Afternoon TV... A great call to some.

And we get plenty of American imports, eg. Boston Legal.

... I think our TV wouldn't be able to be shown much in America. It's more.. liberal in what can be shown and what can be said, and the topics... ...

Tuesday: We also get Al-Jazeera, the for English version. I've got BBC, Sky and Al-Jazeera in our favs.

Czuch: Partially, some of his foreign policies were making waves, and on the otherside the price of oil went through the roof and oil companies saw that as an excuse to rip off people and make huge profits... Also the energy companies saw the same excuse.

Czuch: Um no, your gun policy is a state thing, otherwise how can a bank get away with giving out free rifles for opening an account!!

No... I have realism. I've seen how loopholes can be used and how serial killers and child abusers (from watching stuff that probes such people) on how a face can be put on. I've also seen people who've past their driving test drink drive, or drive so dangerously that they kill or maim others.

A driving test pass means you can drive, it's no guarantee you'll be a good driver though.

(V): Opec caused that oil crisis, but when they went up last year so high, it was Bushs fault???