ColonelCrockett: I don't know, I tend to chat occasionally during my games. I don't think anybody uses the discussion boards at IYT. To be honest I'd forgotten they exist.

Nugsson: the stack4 board on IYT is just as dead usually, I guess us "line4" players just don't like to talk much . . .

ColonelCrockett: Two posts in 3 days! Busiest it's been here in months ;)
I'm one of those people who play both here and at IYT.

this board is just buzzing . . . incredibly busy . . . LOL

ColonelCrockett: welcome to BK I'm afraid I don't really know how many people play both sites.

I see alot of the same IDs from IYT. Are there many players who play stack4 on IYT and Line4 here?

nice to know which boards have and havent been solved to

BuilderQ: very nice!

(nice layout, simple and to the point without being boring ... well done :))

I haven't been able to find a truly comprehensive resource for connect four information, so I've decided to start work on my own.
http://fourinarow.50webs.com

that'd certainly make for another intersting game

"Each player receives 16 disks of his own colour and 5 white disks." You would be forced to use wild pieces if the game went on long enough.

BuilderQ: I just took a look, at first it looks like a great idea to add a third color, but if it's an option if a person uses the "wild" or not - I would never use it - I mean why would I want to place a piece that my opponenet can use also.

Anyone heard of CARAMBA 4?

Anyone want to play a game?

thanks ... a dutch site as well .. located (physically) very close to where i did the last phase of my study (1 door away from my room, down the hall ;))

See this site for some solved board sizes: http://www.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/c4.html

By the looks of your rating and record you have no problem winning with either color. lol . lol

I think black (player 2) definitely has the advantage at this game.

BuilderQ:
Yes, I think I have a program I wrote to play spider line4 (and the other variant where the pieces come in from the edges until they hit another piece). Anyone who wants it can email me:
msmammel at starpower dot net

You would rather play black? I would rather play white. You find playing black easier? I am undefeated still at this (8-0-0) and I always play white.

ah yes i see now :), how dopey am i lol

Otherwise the 2nd person can just keep placing their piece on top of the 1st, and sooner or later, the 1st player will make 4 in a row on the bottom row.

i dislike the fact that you can't place a piece on another persons, seems so strange to me, as to why you wouldn't be allowed

Variant.....

Spider Volcanic Line4 (Kind of like Gold Tokens Blackhole 4 in a row) - except with spider rules.

Start the game out with 1 square (Randomly picked) which is a "volcano" which is unusable for both oppenets. (Maybe even 2 volcanos - but that might be too much for the current board size)

Spider BONUS Line4 - (Kind of like Gold Token's Hotspot 4 in a row) - Except with spider rules.

There is a bonus square randomly put in the board which can be used by both players to make their match. the "Cross dressing" piece which will wear both players colors. :-)

Yes SLAYER, I learnt how to play Spiderline4, & to get to 2700 pts, by beating you, Master! ;) lol! I learnt the game by wanting to know why I got beat by better players...Also I expanded these games with my own ideas & also looked at other peoples ideas too...its all about learning it then expanding it.

Anyway, what is this 'white is always a forced win' rubbish? If you play me, then my black is near always a forced win too! What Im trying to say is that yes, white has the advantage BUT only if you know how to win with white against a certain black, and conversely the player does NOT know how to play a good black! To me black can just take longer to win thats all, and therefore there is no advantage, unless however, I play the very top players!...but I would say out of a lot of very top players Ive played over ther years, there are ONLY about 3 or maybe 4 players who have 'mastered' the white & can always win every time, but sometimes they dont! lol! ;)

Shouldn't be randomly I think, then u r much too dependent on what piece the server (computer) takes away.....should then be yr opponent who has the abillity to take away 1 piece after eacht fifth move....Then I think that u will get a lot of draws (which are very rare in the normal Spiderline games) because it is then easy to block the threats of yr opponent and try to craete a new one by yourself but after the 5th move that one is blocked too...do draw at the end...Black picks away a piece and will put one down itself...1 piece ahead for five moves but black was already in defense...so it will be a game of blocking till there are no squares left...at least that is what I think of it. You often need a key move to win in a forced way and when that one is taken away and also filled with an oppent piece you can start all over again and likewise for Black 5 moves later.I will have to test it, if it is true what I am saying, but good players will draw I think. But you can create the game and M4tt and I will test it...no problem!

SLAYER: What about a variant where one placed piece randomly disappears each fifth move? :-D

Thanks Nugsson and do you know from whom M4tt learned the game? Yes, me, lol! And I, myself learned it from studying the games from the early tourney winners at IYT from the year 1999 and 2000. I also think (When I play concentrated) I know every forced win for White (Purple) You can only lose with White while making a big mistake. Anyway I know a huge lot of forced wins what makes the game less interesting for me nowadays (some winning sequences already appeared in hundreds of my games and that is getting pretty boring, when u know u r gonna win but it still have to take 6 moves or so...) and are retiring soon (from IYT).

are the boards with a height of 7 solved as well ?

I was white in this game with "John's Connect Four Playground," a "perfect playing connect-4 program" Its "12Kbyte database of all 8 ply positions" did not stop it from making a losing mistake on its second move.

1) d1 - a1
2) f1 - b1??
3) e1 - g1
4) c1*

No human expert would let me win in four moves, regardless of who started. What constitutes perfect play as black is subjective, of course, but that is exactly why humans are better at it.

Programs that can play connect four (6x7) perfectly:
4 in a row (http://www.fierz.ch/4inarow.htm), Mustrum(http://www.lbremer.de/mustrum_e.html), TitOT (http://corporate.skynet.be/bats/TitOT/), Velena (http://www.ce.unipr.it/~gbe/velena.html), and John's Connect Four Playground (http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/c4/c4.html)...


But the purpose of games is to provide entertainment for human players. Therefore, computers will not discourage me from playing "solved" games. Only when connect four is solved for me (that is, when I know how to always play perfectly myself), will I abandon it.

Right. I could find many chess programs I could beat, even though I admit that I am terrible at chess. Does that mean there aren't any good ones?

Yes, there are many more programs that don't play perfectly but there are also those that do.

Nothing I'm afraid.... the best thing to do is to study how good players win their white games. I learnt at ItsYourTurn.com from players like M4tt and SLAYER... nowadays I guess you could look at some of my games. Try to play the same lines again and again until you remember the best way to play that line. If you need any advice I am happy to help.

Does anybody have a good study guide for Spider Line4?

Computers are not all so strong. Here follows a game I played with the program found at http://members.aol.com/shadows125/connect4.htm. Since there was no option for me to play second, I used the opening move a1, which is a proven loss for player 1.

BuilderQ vs http://members.aol.com/shadows125/connect4.htm

1) a1 - d1
2) d2 - d3
3) d4 - d5
4) f1 - d6
5) f2 - f3
6) g1 - c1
7) e1 - c2
8) e2 - c3
9) g2*

Since the program never learns from its mistakes, unlike a human player, you can go to that site and play all of my moves, and it will respond with the moves I have recorded.

Many people still enjoy playing the 7x6 board on other sites, despite its being solved, so I don't so why BrainKing shouldn't have it in addition to the 8x8.

Odd board heights are workable, but require revised strategies.

the original board was 6 heigh ... the board on here is 8 heigh .. is there a reason to stick to even numbers for the height ?

ah thanks :)

The original Connect4 board game is 7 x 6. That size has been solved to be a forced win for player 1 from the start, and there are actually quite a few programs that, when playing first, WILL WIN (not draw) every time. That's why 8 x 8 is used here - it hasn't been solved (at least not yet) :-)

do i have to learn counting ... or is the board i have at home 7 tiles wide ?

*ponder*

There's no doubt about it, white should win every time. I don't know if anybody has 'solved' the game as such but I don't doubt it can be done. Every response black makes can be followed by a 'best' move by white, and 3-4 moves in it's very often a forced win for white.

Does anyone know if this game has been solved yet? (if there's a sure win for either side).
From my experience (and from this site's stats), white has a big advantage but I haven't found a winning sequence yet...

Note: I don't want to know the sequence, even if there is one... just to know if anyone found it.

I have got a 4x4x4 game at home, you cannot place the pieces everyware, you have to start at the lowest layer and then work you way up, very interesting game

not in a 4x4x4 board (cube)

you will run out of the board

try it on paper

.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....
.... .... .... ....

those are the 4 layers .... place on top of each other

If you can place a piece anywhere, to connect four is very trivial for player 1 to force.

no gravity .. its like the five in line game .. you can place your pieces anywhere

By the way, here's another variant:
CRISS CROSSING FOUR IN A ROW

What sort of "gravity" exists in this variant? Or can pieces always be placed in any of the 64 spaces?

nice pattern :)

Well, click here to see one possilbe web pattern.