Jim Dandy: Hamas was formed in 1987, the problems started before that. They are just the result of a biased system and idiotic policies regarding the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should have been (through some land given up by their muslim brothers) a complete home land.

Also I find it hard to accept the devilling of the Hamas by USA citizens after the support they gave to the IRA in terms of funds and weapons. Also I find it hard for Americans to denounce terrorism after the many cases of interference and support to terrorist organisations during the cold war, just because the government in power of a country (such as Chile in the 70's) was socialist.

The "School of the Americas" as it was called in a UN report was citied as ""graduating 500 of the worst human rights abusers in the hemisphere."

(V): Who are going to be represented in these peace talks? Hamas are a terrorist organization, they are not a country.... maybe you can clarify exactly what these peace negotiations will look like and how it might resolve things?

Tuesday: Okay, so the wars started, and the innocent people who died, with their screaming and crying relatives, all in the name of your freedom are okay, but the other wars with other innocents dying and their relatives grieving all for the sake of someone elses freedom is not okay.... is that what you are saying???

Artful Dodger: It reminds me of when I would fight with my sister when we were kids.If I started the fight I would be forced to apologise,if my sister started it,we both got repremanded.Israel is in a no win situation,they are expected to take their daily bombings,and smile.Hamas should be blamed for bringing this onto the Palestinian civilians.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N00/679/37/PDF/N0067937.pdf?OpenElement

going on for years and years and years......

Artful Dodger: Killing will just make it worse not better. Maybe Israel should sit down with the rest of the middle east and work at a plan FULL STOP.

I could be chairman.. and clout anyone who acts like a kid and won't contribute to a lasting peace plan.

Artful Dodger: this problem is longer then a few years Art... it goes back decades. As I said earlier, if certain UN resolutions and security council actions had not been vetoed then maybe we would have already a sustainable peace.

And why target police stations ?

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but both sides are involved. Hama's killing Israelies and Israelies killing Palestinians.

Maybe we should set up a big 1 mile area sq and get all those who want to kill each other in there with just clubs.

Then both civilian populations can have a holiday and watch from the sidelines. AND NOT GET KILLED.

Artful Dodger: And a kid in Gaza is not a victim? That's wrong to dehumanise a whole country just because of some killers.

It's Hama's, Israel and others for letting the situation go on this long. I'm afraid you sound like those in NI who use to justify killing civilians on the side of the IRA just because they were pro IRA.

Czuch: That's the kinda attitude that led to the use of chemical weapons in WWI, the development of the H bomb and onto biological weapons that would kill all sentient life on this planet.

Boys and their toys of mass destruction.

(V): okay, no it is not right for ussr to lob a nuke at us if it was not in retaliation, if we already lobbed a couple at them, then all bets are off and if they nuke us, well too bad for us!

(V): What do you expect??? I mean really, you kill one and i am only allowed to kill one in return?? You need to make them pay and hurt enough to never want to mess with you again, war is not about being fair and playing nice, if you get hit, i say pound them back and make them regret ever messing with you!

Czuch: Not an answer.

Tuesday: Thats right you are not... except that you said all war is wrong and bad, doesnt that include the wars that gave you your freedom too?

How is it different for people to die for your freedom in a war, than people to die for Iraqi future freedom in a war?

Artful Dodger: No. Hamas and Israel are the problem, and that the UN has been blocked from taking action all these years by the USA.

... It's a bit difficult to move when there is no where really safe to move to.

Maybe, they should of just gone in land wise in the first place rather then using highly destructive weapons that no matter what will kill civilians.

And that the death toll is so one sided, just shows... It makes me think almost sometimes that the Israelies have turned into what they hated in some ways. Big bullies with big guns.

(V): Its a cold war silly, what is happening in Israel right now is hardly a cold war.... it is legitimate retaliation and if Hammas is so worried about innocent people they should not lob bombs themselves!

Isabella of Castile Born: 1451; Died: 1504

Isabel La Católica-2

Isabella I of Spain, well known as the patron of Christopher Columbus, with her husband Ferdinand II of Aragon, are responsible for making possible the unification of Spain under their grandson Carlos I. As part of the drive for unification, Isabella appointed Tomás de Torquemada as the first Inquisitor General of the inquisition. March 31, 1492 marks the implementation of the Alhambra Decree; expulsion edicts forcing the removal or conversion of Jews and Muslims. Roughly 200,000 people left Spain; those remaining who chose conversion were subsequently persecuted by the inquisition investigating Judaizing conversos. In 1974, Pope Paul VI opened her cause for beatification. This places her on the path toward possible sainthood. In the Catholic Church, she is thus titled Servant of God.

Queen Mary I Born: 1516; Died: 1558

468Px-Mary1 By Eworth 3

Mary was the only child of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon to live past infancy. Crowned after the death of Edward VI and the removal of The Nine Days Queen-Lady Jane Grey, Mary is chiefly remembered for temporarily and violently returning England to Catholicism. Many prominent Protestants were executed for their beliefs leading to the moniker "Bloody Mary". Fearing the gallows a further 800 Protestants left the country, unable to return until her death. It should be noted that Elizabeth I shares position 10 on this list for her equally bad behavior.

Czuch: That makes them even more innocent. And as for a densely populated area....

.... Ok, supposed during the cold war it got a little heated and the USSR launched some nukes at silo's in the USA and the missile went off target and wiped out an American city through radiation, heat and blast damage.

... You are saying this is ok?

Tuesday: So now i expect your next post to put down all the people who died for your freedom... same as you put down people dying for the freedom of future generations in Iraq?

Tuesday: There are no evil women with egos in history?

(V): A civilian is not innocent if they are forced to be a shield for any military targets..... I put all the blame of any civilians killed directly on the people who use them as shields by putting military instillation in densely populated areas!

tazman7474: So what will you say when the prices go up again???

Its that type of flawed thinking that aggravates me so much about libs.......

anastasia: I have personally been to Vietnam, the same anti war hippies said all the same things about that war as they are saying about Iraq, I have spoken to many many people in Vietnam and I never spoke to one person who was against what we tried to do there, and these are people who lost family members and people who were themselves jailed and tortured for many decades because of what we tried to do there! The only regrets these people had were that we pulled out of that fight and left them without finishing what we started!

I have no reason to believe Iraq will be any different, the worst thing we can do now is leave them before the job is finished, and in 20 or 30 years from now the future generations will only have thanks for our efforts and they will wonder why the rest of the world was not there to help!

Who was it? Roosevelt who left office with a terrible approval rating and now many decades later history shows him to be one of our greatest presidents ever! I believe history will treat Bush much the same way too!

Tuesday: LOL, I dont see you complaining about being one of the survivors whos life is better because other people were killed in the name of your freedom?

What about our civil war???? What about Hitler??? The only reason you enjoy the life you have today is because somebody else life was destroyed!

Just because you dont see it doesnt mean there werent people screaming and crying in the streets when people were dying to give you your life?

Just like you would give your life to save the life of your child, its the ultimate sacrifice, and yes it sucks, but it is ignorant to believe that it is wrong to sacrifice some life for the greater good of the lives of others

Take the example of a hostage situation... it is common and accepted practice to risk the lives of some of the innocent hostages in order to save the lives of some, and end the crisis. Yes, you will see some family members screaming and crying when they learn that it was their loved ones who were the unfortunate killed in the rescue attempt, but that has never stopped us from having a policy to attempt rescues in those situations!

Thats how I see Iraq, the people there were being held hostage by Saddam and his regime, they needed outside help to end that crisis, and some of them were at risk of dying in the process of liberating the many and for the overall good for future generations!

Artful Dodger: How... they are killing innocent civilians. It comes from firing at 'military' targets in a dense population zone. No missile can distinguish between civilian and military.. it just goes to it's designated target (or nearby) and blows up.... BANG!!!

.. people die.

so you say you slept thru 2008, no problem, click here
http://www.unclejayexplains.com/media/UJ%2012-22-08.wmv

Tuesday: I just finished watching (yesterday) the movie "The Pianist"....it was about the Warsaw Jews.....sad movie

tazman7474: It irritates the crap outta me when you drive by in the morning and it is one price,drive by 2 hours later and it is up 20 cents...they're workin off the SAME tanks of gas they were 2 hours ago! please

Artful Dodger: It just seemed pretty fishy to me that the prices dropped that fast!

Artful Dodger: this board would be really boring if we all agreed,lol

Tuesday: ask the jews and the polish that question about wwII

Vikings: their lives aren't being destroyed...why don't you go take apoll over there and ask the ones who have had family members killed,lost the only home they have ever known if their lives are being destroyed...They are being liberated...but at what cost??

tazman7474: Oil prices are down due to world demand being down as a result of the economy, they were dropping before the election starting with Bushes declaration to the end of the executive order on the drilling ban

How about a new slant on here? Back in August, I was paying $4.25 a gallon for gas. Now it's down to $1.80, could that have anything to do with the new president NOT having ties to the oil companies?

Tuesday: their lives aren't being destroyed, that is a liberal media slant, they are being liberated now without fear of retribution for innocent actions as they were before, but that won't be reported until the end of janruary,

Tuesday: Gravy in the spaghetti? That must be another one of those Ozarks things, kind of like fried bologna sandwiches *1*

Tuesday: no it is not, Bagdad is under control of the Iraqi's, their crime rate is lower than chicago's,

Tuesday: at least Bush won't be in office to much longer to make anymore of his ignorant jokes about the war over their...