Artful Dodger: Current history. The Taliban got their training from whom??


.. go on say it... it won't hurt to

Artful Dodger: Compared to the CIA?

Artful Dodger: Like Egypt? We were told until the uprising it was a great democracy. They were wonderful people!!

Anyways.. be careful. Some men in the US might get jealous and want the old days back when women were chained to the kitchen sink!!

.. it says in the Bible men rule.

Artful Dodger: what about the Muslims being killed in Burma?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uO4leI66Ko

Artful Dodger: They are taking land that is not theirs. Did you not watch the video?

And yes they are killing civilians, hence the death toll being 100+ in the Gaza strip.

Artful Dodger: No.. it hasn't really been tried properly, the US has always vetoed any serious attempt by the UN to put pressure on Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fucpus065C4

Is it the Israeli influence in Washington that keeps something being done? It's well known they have spies in the USA!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Yeah, I read. Just as I read the problem starts back before a little, with the first influx of 'Israelites' in the period after WWI.

Also I read, that Jewish freedom fighters just after WWII started a terrorist campaign against the British administration. Bombing, assassination and violent uprisings led to the British having to have a force of 100,000 troops.

"When children grow up looking at those things, they grow up hating each other. Israeli children grow up afraid of Palestinian attacks. Palestinian children grow up terrified of Israel's military might. That is a recipe for eternal mutual fear and hatred."

Don't I know it.

"Even if western empires could do something, three generations of war have made sure that the old wounds will never heal."

I cannot agree with that. Alot of time would be required to heal the wounds.. decades. But it is possible. But not without a third party acting as peace keepers.

Übergeek 바둑이: I had heard people mention it's been going on that long, but I wouldn't have thought a feud could go on for so long.

"by all accounts, are a nuclear superpower just like their opponents are!"

mmm.... that is a just a rumour. One that seems to be true, otherwise such hostile countries as said do surround Israel could get together and invade any time.

... If that is, the US presence wasn't there.

The Col: Technically.. it's been going on for decades. That's how I look at it.

"Politically speaking you are well aware of the many differing opinions in Israel, and specifically The Knesset in regards to finding a lasting peace, but when it comes to defending against attacks, they unite."

Well aware, n' yes.. I expect them to unite. It'd be quite an event if a significant portion said no retaliations.

The Col: Exactly as they have done unfortunately.

"Who started this recent round of bombings?"

""Israel's offensive on Gaza began with an air strike that killed the commander of Hamas's military wing, Ahmed Jabari, whom it accused of responsibility for "all terrorist activities against Israel from Gaza" over the past decade.

IDF ... subsequently announced the start of Operation Pillar of Defence, which it said was intended to protect Israeli civilians from rockets and mortars fired by militants in Gaza, as well as cripple Hamas's capability to launch attacks.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the operation was launched because he could no longer "accept a situation in which Israeli citizens are threatened by the terror of rockets"....

....Hamas, which has governed Gaza since 2007, said Jabari's assassination had "opened the gates of hell".

Although Jabari's killing signalled the start of Israel's offensive, it was preceded by spates of deadly cross-border violence which saw Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas's Qassam Brigades, firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel and the Israeli military shelling Gaza and carrying out air strikes.

Some observers have noted that the offensive was launched only nine weeks before parliamentary elections in Israel. Others have alleged that Operation Pillar of Defence was intended to undermine the Palestinian plan to request non-member observer state status at the UN later in November.

>>>>>> Do you agree?

Artful Dodger: So a hijacked plane with a bomb on it, killing civilians is different from a bomb on the bus how? Less casualties?? Smaller explosion??

The PLO were at it before Hamas, the PLO then junked the attitude and started working towards a deal. I'm not saying the 'talks' were done with everyone holding hands singing songs.. but it was a leap from an active terrorist group.

Hamas needs their cause taken away, they need to be not the source of basic goods in Gaza that Israel and the 'democratic' Egypt are blocking. Hamas are bringing them through tunnels and the people of Gaza want and quite often, need these goods for a normal life.

... normality tends not to breed terrorists. It's not rocket science.

Artful Dodger: Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a conventional name, among others, for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The region is also known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el),[7] the Holy Land and the Southern Levant,[8] and historically has been known by other names including Canaan, Zion, Syria Palaestina, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin and Outremer.

The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the mandate period. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories.[9] ......

In 1830, on the eve of Muhammad Ali's invasion, the Ottoman Porte transferred control of the sanjaks of Jerusalem and Nablus to Abdullah Pasha, the governor of Acre. According to Silverburg, in regional and cultural terms this move was important for creating an Arab Palestine detached from Syria (bilad al-Shams). According to Pappe, it was an attempt to reinforce the Syrian front in face of Muhammad Ali's invasion.[41][42] Two years later, in 1832, Palestine was conquered by Muhammad Ali's Egypt, but in 1840, Britain intervened and returned control of the Levant to the Ottomans in return for further capitulations. The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration and the Revival of the Hebrew language. The movement was publicly supported by Great Britain during World War I with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

The British began their Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1915. The war reached southern Palestine in 1917 progressing to Gaza and around Jerusalem by the end of the year.

" And when Israel gave up Gaza, that's when the bombs started."

So the PLO never hijacked planes, etc before hand?

"Stop making excuses for the terrorists."

Then stop proclaiming the Israelis hands are without blood.. Even our UK government has had to admit the Israelis can be wrong. Like when they broke an agreement not to use UK passports to hide the identity of assassins sent out by Israeli intelligence.

The Col: Like some Israelis are raised from birth. Gotta love Louis Theroux..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb652kwbcic&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=lX18zUp6WPY

The Col: It's an "us and them" an "ism" .. In NI it was just in the end about Protestant and Catholic.

Yes.. I'm not saying the blowing up of a bus is ok.. It's not. But the death toll at the moment seems to be heavily Palestinian.

It's tit for tat imo now.

Artful Dodger: I cannot agree. While a good sized proportion is the fault of militant Palestinian groups, some of the policies Israel has taken, alot of the ignoring of basic rights for Palestinians to keep land they own and not have anyone to stop Israeli citizens driving them out of their homes and/or land.

.... The list of prohibited goods. While weapons is obvious, some of the others seem .. excessive. The relaxation of the prohibited list in 2010 was a good step.. that it was 5 years too late so Hamas didn't get more support.

The Col: I'm not talking about the 'holocaust' part. But what it creates, just like in South Africa... maybe that'd be the better example.

N' why do Hamas leaders get phone calls off the Israelis telling them their house is gonna get bombed?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd6_1353438382

If they are that bad.....

Artful Dodger: Yes, a small group can. N' maybe if the Israeli's did something about the prosecution/attacks on legit Palestinians from their homes, gave back the lands they've stolen...

.. would the US allow a country to steal land from it?

A cause takes building, being forced to live in a ghetto builds anger.

Google a look at the ghetto's that the Jews were forced to live in the Nazi's.

... this is what gets me. We all know what bad quality of life that was. Why are we supposed to think the ghetto's the Palestinians live in are any better?

Artful Dodger: That's BS.. a small group probably do, as a small group of Israelis would like to wipe out the Palestinians.

From surveys and interviews.. most just wanna live in peace!!

Artful Dodger: Different war, different scenario....carpet bombing resulted in the deaths of millions of civilians.

We speak English because we (as in the allies) all fought. N' I doubt if we'd be speaking German if they did win. It'd just be a second language.

Artful Dodger: Both are aggressors.

"Just like the Bible said they would in these end days."

Now... don't give me that baloney. Officially.. as in going by dates .. this world Biblically ended 6 years ago.

Bad interpretation.

Bwild: The bombing of anyone isn't gonna end this 'war'. It'll just make more rEvEnGe.

Artful Dodger: mmmmm ... ... In certain respects regarding this problem. I think it's time the UN did tell the US to back any UN action, instead of vetoing it.. like many times in the past.

113 dead, and God knows how many wounded in this round.

Artful Dodger: ... tricky. Some Israelis want the two state solution implemented, some don't. But that is something that'll require the UN involved, not direct negotiations.

It needs to be done.

Israel tactics and the Palestinian militants tactics are both manure.

Maybe in 20 years time they'll stop fighting.. or maybe Israel will roll in full throttle and wipe out the Palestinians.

Dirty stupid war that is the truth.

Bwild: With those big sumo wrestling suits?

Iamon lyme: No.. it's just an observation, and a question. I'd thought you might have dumped the dissing seeing as you hated it.

"Suggesting I could be that shallow is just another example of your desire to hurl insults and demean the people you hate. There really seems to be no limit to the extent you will go to diss anyone who disagrees with you"

I hate!!! another straw man argument from you... a presumption I've corrected several times yet you want to believe I do.

"If your antagonism towards Christianity is allowed here, then show me in the rules where I may not respond to it? For someone who is not shy about calling others hypocrites you have done a fair job of exemplifying that "quality"."

If it is antagonism. It might just be my dark sense of humour.

btw.. ain't all you done Lamon is switched from dissing Christians to dissing anyone who isn't one?

You wanted authority?

Iamon lyme: No.

"Shouldn't the question be why am I comfortable with what I see in the Bible and who I believe God is? Or are you the consummate authority on all spiritual matters for yourself and everyone else?"

No.

Iamon lyme: Well that seems to be your stawman argument in a nutshell. .. to use your phrase.

"Neville Chamberlain?"

No... he invented the wheel didn't he... or was it he was a Conservative PM who died in 1940? .. of whom Churchill said...

"Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.[204]"

>>>>> Hitler lied, Chamberlain's only real mistake was believing Hitler would live upto his word. The Versailles Treaty was a big mistake.

.... Did you hear that Ford applied for and was paid damages by the US government for damage done to it's German plants by allied bombing.


"So what is your point? Are you saying it's okay to deal with violent organizations if they are internal, but not okay to deal with them if they are not internal? If both will attack you where you live then why make a distinction?"

no... I don't make a distinction.. another strawman.

Iamon lyme: Everyone suffers from that to some degree.. ie a lack of self discipline... that's why God invented meditation.

"and don't want to see the US become just another rat hole for despots to play around with."

Same here.. but you already are.. I could quote a line out of the matrix, but, you might already know it.

"I used to be one those people who would laugh at and demean christians, until I became one."

Rebelliousness...from you've said.. expected.

"I ended up becoming the object of my own scorn. Why do you suppose anyone would do that? Or am I asking you to "think too much"?"

nope... a point in life can trigger things to change.. like who am I.... I got stuck on the surrendering to God for years.. till I realised that God 'is'.

... it's a matter of the image thing and maintaining the central law of Jesus.. what he said. .. ... Love all that is God. The OT says God is in everything.. how do you get comfortable with that?

btw....

"Do you think someone could charge you with a crime, and have you tossed into jail for saying anything here? I doubt it. But who knows? Fencer might show up with an armed detail of soldiers and capture you in the middle of the night."

If found to be organising or committing a crime through a certain 'fellowship', etc .. yes. But it won't be Fencer. It'd be your local police.

eg .. if someone kept putting details of another person anywhere on this site, as in their name, address, phone numbers, etc. Part of the globals job is to save Fencer from possible law suits by making sure it doesn't happen.

thankfully, most of that lunacy tends to stay on facebook. People killing others over tiffs on that abomination.

Iamon lyme: You think too much.

Don't worry about it. Our respective military commanders understand. Maybe if I posted videos of me burning bibles and the US flag on a bonfire you will... or make a video of some guy dressed up as Jesus committing various lewd acts.

"You make reference to Christians and comparing them with Islamists (?) as though it is somehow relevant.. are we getting ready to delve yet again into the past, to find some historical perspective you believe may shore up your point?"

The now I prefer.

"Do you believe backing down to bullies and appologizing to them for hurting their little feelings will stop them?"

Did I say back down.. putting words in my mouth again.

"Making excuses for them doesn't make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside and wanting to become our friends... it encourages them to ramp up their efforts."

Maybe you should study how the NI war ended. As one who lived through that era before you Americans got to experience terrorism at home .. ... !!! .. .. ok, that is wrong... better to say.. before you got to experience terrorism from an organisation based outside the US. As you did have many internal groups willing to resort to violence.

.. as did many countries before 9/11

Iamon lyme: I think it's lame that we still sack people over what is a domestic matter. In normal life it don't matter.

eg.. if the Aliens landed and we had just one person capable of interpreting what they were saying.... would he be sacked if he's messing about with his assistant?

Iamon lyme: The terrorists? Or the others that were there??

"On top of everthing else, allowing people to die unnecessarily, and then lie about it, the president may have to account for being responsible for causing a US citizen to be falsely charged and thrown into jail."

.... You've got Islamic (I mean that in a loose sense, as if they followed their book by the letter regarding certain passages as some so called Christians have not followed their book by the letter) clerics inciting violence being charged here in the UK... we've just extradited one to your country.

Such videos as that guy made are not winning hearts and minds. They put our troops and civilians at risk. They help recruit more psychos to the terrorist cause.

I wouldn't exactly shake his hand because of that.. in fact, I'd give him a good clout round the back of the head... as for those who sponsored him.. Stocks at an State side army base.

... maybe then the soldiers throwing rotten fruit and veg at them will finally get the message across, that they don't need American citizens helping the terrorist leaders get more volunteers.

... You do accept that this is true regardless of other events?

Artful Dodger: The only one to have large enough petitioners to get the question asked!!

..... I gotta ask though, since the original tune behind the Star Spangled Banner was the tune of an 18th century drinking song made by the Anacreontic Society, an English club of amateur musicians....


.... Is The US right gonna say "it ain't American?"

What the ..... The Whitehouse has to reply to a petition from Texas to succeed from the Union because said petition has reached a 25,000-signature threshold.

... Because the GOP lost.

Artful Dodger: Nahhhhhh, the GOP has a lot of supporters, if it were Bush and the accusations turned out to be false... They would be false.

eg McCain and the question whether he was a natural born... .. No question.. he was. Even 'if' he wasn't born on 'US' territory he was born to US parents.

... I'm not seeing any person with real authority on the matter, to such a point that the world's press is going nuts in printing "OBAMA NOT AMERICAN WE HAVE PROOF"..

.. Not even Fox news or news international.

I'm not seeing comparisons of other long form birth certs from Hawaii being done.

All I'm seeing is a few people making noise and money.

Like those here.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB2WvDHxjkw

Now, think.. why would someone say "I believe it's real and have for months" on TV.. but at the same time say it's possible it's a fake?

Iamon lyme: Seriously.. stop thinking for a second and empty your mind...

.... Do you really think that the entire establishment (as we are talking about both parties here as well as 'civil servants' could hide such a fraud? ...

"prove it?"

You don't think it's a fake 100% then!!

"And you were not lax in jumping on that mistake."

Not that it was a mistake, but I can see obviously that different areas will have learnt things differently. The old timers you grew up with, would by nature of the own thinking re-invented certain terms to fit their needs.

"but I confess to occasionallyl trying to slip by the censors by burying my insults in a lot of innocuous sounding words"

.... Yeah well... remember this is a PG site.

"If the tax code had been simplified and constructed to be truly "fair" a long time ago, there would have been no need for tax loopholes to come afterward. After excessively taxing the wealthiest, legislators needed to go back and create ways for them to be able to keep more of their money... why? So they might have something left over to invest in growth, that's why. If this sounds crazy it's because it IS crazy... take it away with one hand and give it back with the other. Sound familiar?"

I agree, it is crazy.. and it's being abused. A simplification and recognition that multi-nationals can hide money thanks to that complexity needs to be worked on.

"why?" I think basically to keep the stock markets buoyant. Much of the money in there is 'imaginary'.

The Col: It's interesting when you learn things after the fact. But so called liberals in the US need to learn from Jon Stewart...

.. In the recent mock debate between him and Bill, he did bring up the matter of contraception... and that Viagra is coverable. N' many have commentated that democrats need to rediscover their cojones.

Artful Dodger: Champ.. Champ..

The Col: This is... a conservative 'state'.

The Col: Interesting to see how many modern phrases date back in some form thousands of years.

Iamon lyme: Ages ago..

"What's up with the parenthetical reference to my 'childhood'?"

Nothing...

"I have more of a right to occupy the White house as the executive leader of my country than our current president does.I don't need to conjure up poorly faked documents because I really WAS born in this country.

No you don't. He was born in America, just for some reason you hate liberals.. or at least your definition of what they are.

"If she was still alive and working, she would be furious about todays taxation"

If everyone in the US .. ok, the 99% got together and closed all the tax loopholes.. I think it'd be quite feasible to permanently lower tax rates for the rich.

Artful Dodger: No no no no no no noooooo... you gotta stand up for your rights to be dominated properly. That bit allowance dates back generations.

..... It's traditional.

Artful Dodger: She's taken your bit away again... I'd speak to your union on that one, it's just totally morally unfair!!