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 Chess variants (10x8)

Sam has closed his piano and gone to bed ... now we can talk about the real stuff of life ... love, liberty and games such as
Janus, Capablanca Random, Embassy Chess & the odd mention of other 10x8 variants is welcome too


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... speculation on who has an advantage or the benefits of potential moves is not permitted while that particular game is in progress)
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6. November 2003, 04:35:40
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re: Total Number of Gothic Chess Positions
More on the pawn count...

Originally I had the non-captured pawn permutaion count at 774,468,423,574,600,034,220 which, as Thad pointed out, seems a little high. When using the concept of the "rammed pawns" constrained to a rank, there are actually 30 different configurations possible per file.

You can have an unmoved pawn in the a-file on a2, and the black pawn can be one of 5 different squares in the same file, a7,a6,a5,a4 or a3. If the white pawn were on a3, then there are 4 squares for the black pawn, etc.

There are always 5-r permutations for the black pawn for each rank of displacement, r, the white pawn has moved.

So, there are 5+4+3+2+1 = 30 possible configurations per file. The total number of permutations is therefore 30^10, which is 590,490,000,000,000. This is only 590 trillion, a lot less than 774 quintillion!

6. November 2003, 08:13:39
Caissus 
Emne: Gothic World Championship
What happens now with this tournement and the finished games? Or have we here a restart?

6. November 2003, 13:56:42
Flubber 
Emne: Re: Gothic World Championship
Fencer claims below that he can reset the results and that they are known. Any unfinished games may have to be restarted.

6. November 2003, 14:14:22
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re: Gothic World Championship
You can see that the BrainPawn section was hit the hardest, since most made new IDs to participate in this event (which was fine) but now their population has been cut in half. Some people may not even remember all of the IDs they made just for this event, so I am thinking about scrapping it altogether.

6. November 2003, 14:18:31
Grim Reaper 
Emne: First Strong Gothic Tournament Concluded
1800+ Gothic Tournament

Despite the recent tragedy, the very strong 1800+ Gothic Chess Tournament concluded recently. There was a major upending of ratings as a result of the strong fighting it out with the strong. ChessCarpenter gained the most points, scoring a stunning 6 out of 8 and nearly getting a draw with me. My own personal adversary, nstre (who always plays me tough) managed only 2 out of 8, and Fencer was blanked!

I hope to run some more strong events such as this more often. Those who are in the top 10 that would like to participate in such an event, please let me know.

17. November 2003, 13:09:41
ughaibu 
Emne: GothicInventor
I'm glad to see that you've removed the absurd claim that Gothic Chess is the world's most popular chess variant from your profile.

17. November 2003, 13:13:24
Grim Reaper 
Why is that absurd?

17. November 2003, 13:19:34
ughaibu 
Strictly a chess variant is played with standard chess men and board, in this catagory there exists suicide chess which has been played at least once by almost every young player. Your game uses a different board and pieces putting it in the same catagory as games like Mak Ruk, Janngi, Shogi and Tsiang Ki, games with tens of millions of regular players.

17. November 2003, 13:29:52
Grim Reaper 
A chess variant is any variation on the game of chess. Shogi is considered a stand alone game by itself. I have played Gothic Chess face to face with the world's strongest occidental Shogi player, Chess International Master Larry Kaufman.

He does not consider Gothic Chess and Shogi to be in the same category.

17. November 2003, 13:34:55
ughaibu 
Considered by whom? Larry Kaufman has never been considered to be clearly the strongest occidental shogi player, Glyndon Townend was considered stronger in the eighties and in the nineties the likes of Grimbergen were at least his equal. Tsiang Ki is of course a lot more popular than Shogi, do you also have that as a "stand alone"?

17. November 2003, 13:40:47
Grim Reaper 
I am just relaying the message. I interviewed Larry for Gothic Chess review, the quarterly magazine. Larry told me he was the highest rated Shogi player that was not Asian. I do not know if that was a "current" statement at the time of the interview, or if it reflected a previous accolade.

I cannot speak of Tsiang Ki since I am unaware of these Asian variants. I can only relay what I have been told by a formidabe player.

17. November 2003, 13:43:34
ughaibu 
Tsiang Ki is Chinese Chess, the rest is a matter of demography. How about the popularity of suicide chess compared with that of Gothic Chess.

17. November 2003, 16:45:39
Grim Reaper 
I sold Gothic Chess sets in every state of the USA, every province and territory in Canada, and about 47 other countries at last count. I have post cards from people from all over the world who tell me how much they like the game.

I have a postcard from a U.S. soldier in Iraq saying he saw his supply Seargant playing Gothic Chess, and that he would order one when he returned from active duty.

A scientist at the South Pole Observatory also has a Gothic Chess set.

These are not one-time players, these are zealots who are strong advocates of the game. I have also played suicide chess once or twice, does that mean I am counted in the popularity index? I played it, gave it a try, and don't particularly care for it.

There are many different metrics you can use to gauge something as intangible as "popularity", and I think unsolicited testimonials from many different corners of the globe is a fair measure.

Let's start with a more tangible one. Is there a Suicide Chess Federation?

17. November 2003, 16:55:50
ughaibu 
You consider the existence of a "federation" to demonstrate proof of popularity? There is a federation of Gogo shogi, the first time I ever played the game was in a match for the world championship such is the paucity of players. A federation demonstrates some manner of commitment by the practitioners, it has nothing to do with popularity.

17. November 2003, 17:08:33
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re:
I was just asking a question. Is there a Suicide Chess Federation?

17. November 2003, 17:13:51
ughaibu 
I've no idea.

17. November 2003, 17:31:30
Grim Reaper 
I just checked online, found some links for Suicide Chess, but no federation or other governing body.

So let's look at some details.

First, we are focusing on the "popularity" of variants, a bit nebulous, but I think we both can agree on some common ground.

I guess my first question is, how many people play Suicide Chess? Is there a way to estimate this? I am not sure "tens of millions" is a viable answer for this variant.

Surely if there were "tens of millions", even if 1% of these players banded together to duke it out regularly we might expect to see a federation formed with some multiple of 100,000 players.

Or can something be very popular and yet have no centralized governing body? I don't think there is a World Jogging Federation, although groups such as the New York Road Runners' Club exist.

I am not sure there is a universal answer. I can quantify sales. I can quanitify interest in the form of email contact and other communications. I can attest to people feeling very strongly about the game of Gothic Chess.

I would think such a combination would allow me to say that this is a very popular variant of chess.

17. November 2003, 17:32:55
rabbitoid 
Emne: Re:
I'd say yes
according to the last rumors, the USCF is on the fast road to commit suicide :(

17. November 2003, 17:37:59
ughaibu 
Okay, so you no longer claim that it's the world's most popular chess variant. I guess you'd be happy to admit that the statement previously displayed on your profile was an exaggeration if you dont want to go as far as calling it an absurdity.

17. November 2003, 17:39:18
Grim Reaper 
I know for a fact the USCF has a balance sheet of -$2,000,000. I spoke with Grant Perks (can you imagine that is the name of a person seated in the Finance Committee of a failing non-profit??) about the situation, and I recently (one month ago) met with Stan Booz, one of the CPA's working with the USCF. We went over the books of the USCF and he identified the key areas that were the cause of all of its strife.

They spun off the Products & Services sector, an annual $3,000,000 revenue stream, to the highest of 10 sealed bids. They needed about $300,000 immediately in order to get their "Christmas Inventory" in place, which is why I was meeting with Stan.

Stan told me 17 people were let go to reduce the cost of the payroll, some waste/fraud/abuse was discovered by some former high-level officers who are no longer involved. And the "relocation project" where the headquarters was moving was a real nightmare, I will not get into that.

So, yes, things look bad for the USCF.

17. November 2003, 17:42:45
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re: Gothic Chess
I thought it said "One of the most popular variants of chess in the world" in my profile. I don't recall ever changing it to explicitly state it was the best variant in the world, because there is no real way to measure this.

17. November 2003, 17:46:08
ughaibu 
"The" most popular was what was written, certainly "best" would have been a strange claim to make.

17. November 2003, 17:51:43
WhisperzQ 
Emne: Chess Variants
I think you have both missed the point. There are, I would suggest, three types of variants:
1. Alternative Rules Where a standard, or near standard board is used but the rules are changed which usually emphasises one or more aspects of traditional chess ... examples are suicide chess, atomic chess, extinction chess and loop chess. These result in a limitation of the current strategies and tactics.
2. Alternate Starting Arrangements Using traditional rules but with different starting positions ... examples are Fortress chess and Corner Chess. These result in alternate strategies and tactics.
3. Alternate Boards and/or Pieces These alternatives attempt to expand on the basic tenets of traditional chess ... examples are Gothic Chess, Janus Chess, Grand Chess and Shogi (although a Shogi player may well consider our traditional chess to be the variant!). If main-stream chess is to change it will be into one (or a combination) from this group as they offer teh opportunity to expand the strategies and tactics of the game.

In the end, they all add to our experiences of war gaming with little pieces on a generally chequered board. Chess has always been in a state of change although there have been few changes in recent times. As more people play I think all types of variants will increase in popularity as they explore the bounds of their experience ... and each person will have their favourite(s). If traditional chess is to change it will be a gradual process which may take many generations before it is like gothic or janus

17. November 2003, 17:52:37
Grim Reaper 
I thought I just did a copy/past from the website

17. November 2003, 18:23:59
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Something strange is happening here
I just saw 4 of my posts disappear, then come back after I wen to the Main Page then returned.

17. November 2003, 18:25:11
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Fencer must be working on the boards
I see some changes taking place.

17. November 2003, 18:32:08
Fencer 
I did nothing, I've just logged in. I'll check the database.

17. November 2003, 18:34:02
Grim Reaper 
Both Whisperz and I were editing some of ourposts then something funky happened, but not it looks like things are back to normal.

I think one post by ugh disappeared in the process too.

17. November 2003, 18:35:59
Fencer 
The system still needs some tuning.
Btw, what is Suicide Chess? I've never heard about that. Would it be worth adding to BrainKing?

17. November 2003, 18:42:34
Grim Reaper 
Suicide is also "losing chess". You win when you get checkmated, so you play as lousy as you can.

17. November 2003, 18:45:01
WhisperzQ 
Emne: Suicide Chess
We already have it, I think, as anti-chess.

17. November 2003, 18:48:50
Thad 
Emne: Re:
Yes, it's Anti Chess. And it's more than just playing lousy. ;-)

17. November 2003, 18:51:05
Fencer 
There is a difference, isn't it? There is no check or checkmate in anti chess, you have to lose all your pieces [or immobilize them].

17. November 2003, 18:51:45
Grim Reaper 
OK, you play soooooooooo lousy that you can force your opponent to accidentally checkmate you :)

17. November 2003, 18:54:57
WhisperzQ 
Emne: RE: Suicide Chess
I think I play like that anyway (at least some games as Gothic can attest :)

17. November 2003, 19:03:58
Grim Reaper 
Whisperz, what was your previous post about?

17. November 2003, 19:14:28
bwildman 
Emne: Re: helpin out
heres the first draft
edit number one.......

17. November 2003, 19:14:35
ScarletRose 
Emne: Who wants to teach
me how to play Gothic Chess?? I believe I am getting some free time in my busy schedy.. and would agree to a venture for a variation of Chess.. I am a fairly decent player.. Not a Master but, I put up a good challenge..

So.. who will do the honors.. ?

17. November 2003, 19:15:33
WhisperzQ 
Emne: My previous post ...
discussed chess variants, suggesting there are three types ...
1. Alternative rules which might emphasis one (or more) particular aspects of traditional chess which has the effect or limiting chess.
2. Alternative starting arrangements lke fortress and corner chess, which only provides alternative strategies and tactics without expnading the game.
3. Alternative boards and/or pieces, such as Gothic, Janus, Grand and Shogi which work to expand Chess.
Further, the argument over suicide vs Gothic was not a real one as they are different types. I think the first type will always be around as they can be used to hone strengths and weakenesses, the second will come and go as they really offer little except the burning of opening books, and the third will always be the largest group where many will come and go but few will remain. The ones which remain are more likely to be established as an independant game (such as Shogi ... here with some discussion over which is the actual variant Shogi or traditional chess) or contribute to the gradual change which does happen within chess over generations.

Or something to that effect :)

17. November 2003, 19:16:13
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re: Who wants to teach
I will volunteer.

17. November 2003, 19:16:52
ScarletRose 
Emne: Re: Who wants to teach
Thank you.. :)

I will go review the rules of the game..

17. November 2003, 19:18:21
bwildman 
ok Ed...I posted,then edited my post....both showed up...anything else?

17. November 2003, 19:19:30
Grim Reaper 
Emne: If all posts that are edited are here...
...and none disappeared, I think the problem is resolved. Thanks for all who participated.

17. November 2003, 19:22:04
Grim Reaper 
Emne: Re: Whisperz post
Very well said! I was grappling for the concept in trying to stratify the Gothic and Suicide variants, but I just did not summarize it as well as you did.

Interesting to note that there are two forms of the #3 item. There are those variants that bloom and become a different stand alone game, and there are those that become so dominant that they took over and the previous iteration of the game withers and dies.

17. November 2003, 19:25:52
WhisperzQ 
Emne: Re: Whisperz post
GothicI: RE your last comment, not being a chess history buff I don't know, but I wonder if it was not more a process of assimilation than replacement. Take for instance the en passant move or the double move of the pawn from the 2nd rank.

17. November 2003, 19:26:31
ughaibu 
One of my posts, timed around 1:45 (it now being 3:26) has gone but no problem.

17. November 2003, 19:28:06
bwildman 
Emne: Re: If all posts that are edited are here...
your welcome....now back to the business at hand! ;)

17. November 2003, 19:28:22
WhisperzQ 
Welcome to the "where the hell has my post gone" club :)

17. November 2003, 19:29:43
ScarletRose 
Emne: Re: If all posts that are edited are here...
Yes.. and I assume a certain doc is waiting for you to return to the dungeon.. LMCAO!!

17. November 2003, 19:30:18
Grim Reaper 
In the historical framework, the en passant move was really the French's "pet peeve". Even while Paul Morphy was still playing, en passant was not universally agreed upon, although most players did play this way. Howard Staunton was instrumental in getting the rules and standards written down, and I think it was 1881 that the official description on en passant made its way into "chess law."

The most interesting evolution I think was that concerning castling. The Italian players wanted the king to move ANY two squares, with the ability to place the rook next to wherever the king landed! Now that would be confusing! I think it took 80 years for the "freeformers" to be tamed to just horizontal movements of the king.

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