Czuch Chuckers: But backgammon frequently lasts 30-40 moves or more. Is this some sort of "see who can stay awake the longest" competitions we used to do in college?

...it exists in Backgammon as well as hypergammon and should, in my opinion, be corrected as soon as possible.

Furthermore, anyone who realises should not take advantage of it.

Anyone not realizing needs all the help they can get.

AbigailII: Actually I have noticed that a win-loss against the same player is a net gain for both players in certain circumstances. This does seem like a flaw in the system.

Mike UK: I've always been concerned by the fact that after a while I tend to just go up or down 8 when I win or lose.

The problem here is that if I am even a little above average and win, say, 55% of my games, I will eventually move my rating up as I play a lot of games.

What is wrong with my reasoning here?

alanback: The problem is that building this into the formula doesn't have any effect on those that choose not to play at all.

If there was some way to penalize not playing, perhaps some sort of natural decay could be built in to the rating.

Alternatively just remove players who don't either start or finish a game in a set period (I suggest 3 months). If they play again after that they get a provisional rating again.

Walter Montego: I'd have to disagree, your move 6 should have captured the 11 blot in my opinion. For one thing your chance of being hit next turn is less, and you knocked back his piece further. Easy in hindsight though eh?

Chessmaster1000: That's a good point, most of the time these programs will calculate expected result, meaning they will double the number of gammon chances etc. In this site we should only be worried about winning %ages.

Nonsense, if the dice roll can be entered by the player then clearly a computer could assess the best possible move. That would only apply to games where luck was everything.

I wonder what the esperanto version says

Since there's no gammon, it may not be a bad idea to give yourself 2 pieces. More chance of hitting, and you may form a block.

Pedro Martínez: I like 8-2 6-2, but only because it isn't expected. It is probably the toughest opening roll to choose from.

YOu guys missed an important point.

In that game 13-5 (actually 12-20 since it was black) not only grabbed the important 5-point, but also put a checker on the bar. Without that the play 13-9, 24-20 is also not too bad, though the 5-point is the most important one to grab early.

6-5 is always a run, there is not even a close second to consider.

I'm glad I never started an anti-backgammon game.

Thanks, I'll let you know. I may change the OS first. :)

pgt: I'm on Windows 2000, which is notoriously crappy for playing games. Time to upgrade to a real operating system it seems.

Well I'm on a laptop, so the graphics card is probably strange. Anyway I've tried about a million settings changes etc etc and it crashes every time. Pity, it seems like a good game - I guess I'll never know.

Windows 2000 SP3. The game doesn't seem like one that needs a great graphics card.

So I downloaded this software and tried playing, but it hangs after about 10 moves and the only way out is shutting it down from the Task Manager. Anyone else experience that?

danoschek: You must really enjoy pointless and nonsensical insults.

all: Since very few people here has anything interesting to say about Backgammon and is infested with idiots, I'm taking this board off my favorites list.

Adieu...

Just pointing out the source of the problem.

Actually we were dicussing backgammon, the cube etc etc, until Danoschek interrupted with no added value.

Walter Montego: Yes, but i was just answering your comment:

"It's hard for me to imagine that this would happen as this is a very disadvantagous type of position to find one's self in."

Walter Montego: All good, except that when you have the cube, it means you can double and your opponent cannot. At the start nobody has the cube.

And it is quite possible that doubling is a good move when you're stuck. For instance I am down to 1 piece and it is stuck. I was previously trying for a gammon, but now that is impossible so I just double.

Walter Montego: In other words, if you wouldn't roll the dice in a real board situation, then you don't get to here as well.

See, i explained it in 3 lines for those without the attention span to read your original post :)

Of course the doubling cube counts, so if you can double you always get a move.

here are the rules

If you don't like them perhaps you could try a different game.

AbigailII: To what tournaments do you refer? On this site ALL backgammon games are 1 point matches.

Ok, point taken. I guess my point then is: Who would ever play a one point match? I don't remember ever doing that across a board except to teach my kids how to play.

I disagree, I think it changes the game enough to be different.

If it's the same, we need to start giving 2 points for a gammon in a regular game (so a gammon would be like winning 2 games as far as ratings go etc).

i think resigning being worth the maximum is a good compromise. It may take a few moves to rule out a gammon on some occasions, but it would be much quicker than not allowing a resignation at all.

This happens in many of the games unfortunately.

Blackadder Mr K: Hey, if you don't like analysis why bother even reading this board at all? Take your anger management issues to the "silly arguments" board.

Ah, but many roll outs show that making the 2 point is virtually equal in single matches, and better when playing for a gammon.
It suffers from possibly leading to a gammon for either side so running is best if you want to avoid a gammon.

Chessmaster1000: Ok. Just as interesting is what is the best opening play with 6-4? It's not that clear cut as some would believe.

Pedro Martínez: I think we've come up with the top 2 choices, along with Chessmaster's making the 3 point. Which is best though? Probably close.

We haven't considered the match score either.

Chessmaster1000: i would play 13-10 13-8. How'd I do?

redsales: Whoever could that be prolonging the game? Shouldn't that be grounds for expulsion from the site?

Actually as long as you play within the tourmament's game limit I don't think it should be a problem. The biggest problem I have are the people that are actively playing but still using up auto-vacation days because they can't get to all their games. I think this is an indication of having too many games going. Since Chessmaster hasn't been doing that we can't really complain i think.

I don't have any interest in handling it. I believe it to detract from the enjoyment. I actually like caring about my games and putting a little thought into them.

Also I am never short of moves to make, even with 30 games going so why would I bother with more?

Personally, I believe the madness is playing 350 games at the same time. How can you maintain context, or even care about the outcome of the game?

wayney: He'll win by waiting until you get so annoyed you leave the site. I can't think of a better strategy than that.

wayney: Don't forget he's the best backgammon player on earth(!) and probably didn't get there by rushing his moves

rod03801: Are people so childish as to covet such a meaningless statistic?

Restrict it to tournament games only and you will eliminate the problem.

Walter Montego: It's much different since I wouldn't be capturing my opps pieces etc.

I think anti-backgammon games are reaaally silly personally, but it would be just as possible with hyper than regular.

JamesHird: I think we could get to 500 without too much trouble.

ok, why not. But we both try to prolong it.

2 people could by deliberately making it easy to get hit. Can't prolong forever, but make the expected length go up.

Daniel Snyder: I think the point was that people will start playing deliberately to prolong the game instead of trying to win. This would render the record meaningless.

+1 is understandable, since it is rounded. So it really means anything from +0.5 to +1.49

It's the +8 that I find strange, it happens too often.

Ok I created a spreadsheet using that formula and get:

Grenv: old BKR = 2332, new BKR = 2336 (+4)
BackgammonLover: old BKR = 2126, new BKR = 2118 (-8)

my point is I always seem to go up 8. I realize my opp went donw more because of fewer games played.