Artful Dodger:

> It does bother me that they killed Bin Laudin instead of capturing him.

I think that capturing him alive would have been the crowning achievement in the War on terror. The number one target who knew almost everything about Al Qaeda would have been the most valuable intelligence asset and they just smoked him off. The only reason i can see would be if bin laden killed himself rather than be captured, or if he fought to the death. That does make sense considering the mentality of the suicide bomber. However, people like Bin Laden are leeches who send others to die rather than dying themselves. It is all disconcerting.

> Why the burial at sea? That makes no sense. He's a murderer and a terrorist. Who
> gives a rip about his religion. According to the US, he's not a true Muslim anyway!
> Somethings not right with that. If true, the burial is moronic.
> Also, one report said that since they could not find a country that would accept the
> body for a land burial, they opted for a sea burial. But then they also said they did not
> want the location of his body burial to be known. Then why seek a land burial at all? > Why not bury him in the US in some secret place?

Somebody said that they did not want his grave to become a shrine to a martyr. That makes sense. Then somebody said that Islamic law requires a body to be buried within 24 hours of death. The administration comes out and says that he was treated "in the Islamic way". It is stupid. What is the islamic way? Pump his body full of bullets and dump him in the sea? If anything, it sounds more like an overt insult to Moslems

> And how long does it take for DNA to be analyzed (I have no idea). It seemed pretty fast to me.

First thing, for DNA to be analyzed there is a basic requirement. There must be an initial sample to comapre it too. Did the USA have an original sample of Bin Laden's DNA? If so, where did it come from? When did the CIA get to collect blood, or hair follicles or bucal swabs or anything with bin Laden's DNA? it seems foolish that they had a sample of his DNA all along so that they could compare it to the sample they collected from the corpse.

Second thing, the assumption is that they had a laboratory in Pakistan that could do the analysis. They had all the equipment waiting, including solutions, instrumentation, DNA polymerase, capillary electrophoresis machines, etc. They also had the original sample there to compare against the corpse. If not, they would have to fly the samples to the nearest country that had all that available. Maybe India or Israel. Preparing the samples and all that takes a couple of days. Most forensic laboratories in North America take from 3 to 7 days to do the analysis. Maybe they have all the technology in the world, and people on standyby 24 hours a day. At best, 48 hours working around the clock. Yet they annouce this not even 24 hours after bin Laden's death. It seems far fetched.

Fast???....it was just too fast to be believable.

GT:

> yes strategic resources,oil water, minerals, land,ocean access etc... as old as human history

For all the talk and ideology, all of our governments are very good at making excuses. Freedom, democracy, justice, equality, tolerance and all the nice ideals that they sell to the masses are empty when we face the realities of empire building, aggression, greed and lust for power. Then when faced with reality everyone acts surprised,or pretends to be disappointed, or ignores the truth, or, even worse, makes excuses to justify wrongdoing in the name of a higher ideal.

Übergeek 바둑이: yes strategic resources,oil water, minerals, land,ocean access etc... as old as human history

GT:

> I wonder at their motives

It is black, it is sticky and it burns. Lybia is got a lot of it, and it is just a stone throw's away across the Mediterranean. The motive is the same as in Iraq and Afghanistan: oil.

Übergeek 바둑이: Maybe the U.S. should have done a Nick Berg style execution on bin laden. I t should have been total war from the start There are no civilians in total war.. check Al Bomber Harris in WW2 V can tell you about him and Dresden. As for Libya.. ask the British and french. They seemed so hot and heavy to get involved and start bombing..unlike in Bosnia at Gorazde and Srbrenica and other places.. I wonder at their motives

Artful Dodger:

> I don't think it was an intentional thing as planning the capture of Bin Laudin took years
> and the planning months (after finding out where he was). So much goes on in the
> world that it's likely that two major event would be back to back.

While they looked for Bin Laden for years, the actual operation that killed him was decided on last Thursday. The American government decided not to inform Pakistan of the operation because they feared that Pakistani intelligence officers were passing information to Al Qaeda.

Coincidence or not, it all comes at a convenient time. Then there is all this conspiracy theories as as to why the American government decided not to show the body to anyobody else. The burial at sea is a problematic issue too. A lot of people don't believe that Bin Laden was killed. It makes no sense too. Why not capture him alive and interrogate him? I suppose they figured he would not allow himself to be captured alive. If captured alive, then there would be the issue of trials and inquests about who helped him and why, both before and after 9-11.

> But, where's the outrage over the killing of innocent children? That part I don't get
> either. The reports I saw treated it as just another news story.

You obviously missed the part about crowds in Tripoli protesting and ransacking embassies in ourage at the killings. But then, since the protests over this are all Lybian, nobody cares. Our western empires want Gaddafi and Lybians to like the west, but then they forget to mention that our war planes have in two occasions bombed Gaddafi in the hopes of killing him, only to end up killing two of his sons, and now three of his grandchildren, aged two years old and six months old. If Nato thinks that killing a six-month-old baby will make Gaddafi go away, then they are just fascist morons. I imagine that if somebody bombed the White house and killed the president's children, then there would be an outrage. This was nothing more than another example of the Empire's brutality.

You say it was treated as just another news story. That was exactly the objective, to make it look inconsequential. When I saw the report on TV they never mentioned that his grandchildren were killed, or the ages of the children. Then all I heard was Bin Laden this, Bin Laden that. The Empire succeded in distracting people from the fact that three children under the age of two were killed in a cowardly attack. Then they call it a military target. I suppose a six-month-old baby is a viable military target. Then if everybody is distracted, nobody in the Empire has to account for the murder of three children.

Maybe Trump and Obama should switch places. Obama can host Celebrity Apprentice and we can ask "What did Trump know, and when did he know it?"

Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed by Pc at G20 protests

Ian Tomlinson was unlawfully killed by a Metropolitan Police officer at the G20 protests, an inquest jury has said. The 47-year-old collapsed and died after he was hit by a baton and pushed to the ground by Pc Simon Harwood at the protests in London on 1 April 2009.

His family said the verdict was a "huge relief", while the Crown Prosecution Service could reopen criminal proceedings against Pc Harwood. The officer said after the verdict he had not intended to push him over.

The jury decided Pc Harwood acted illegally, recklessly and dangerously, and used "excessive and unreasonable" force in striking Mr Tomlinson.

Jurors added that the newspaper seller, who was not taking part in the protests, posed no threat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13268633

Übergeek 바둑이: Distraction is part of the war on terror.

What a coincidence that the Osama Bin Laden news came right on time to distract people from the fact that Nato bombed Gaddafi's house. In that airstrike Gaddafi's son and three of his grandchildren were murdered. I suppose nobody cares if democratic Nato resorts to killing children, but then, it is not the first time that they kill Gaddafi's family members in the process of trying to kill him. It is nice that any international outrage over the incident was quickly put to rest once Osama Bin Laden was killed.

"The Libyan government said Gaddafi’s son Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, 29, was at a gathering of relatives and friends when three missiles struck the family house just after 8 p.m. Saturday, causing huge explosions. The Libyan leader and his wife, Safiyah, were at the house but escaped unharmed, government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said, calling the attack an assassination attempt. Kaim said a 6-month-old granddaughter, a 2-year-old grandson and a 2-year-old granddaughter also died, as did a friend of Gaddafi’s son."

Washington Post story

Then in Bahrain the opposition has complained that two members of parliament were arrested in the crackdown against protests against that western puppet government. Snce the king of Bahrain does anything that the American and British navies want, it is nice that bigger news are sweeping the dirt under the carpet. If Bahrain oppresses its people, it is OK because the sold-out king allows the American and British navies to build bases there.

"Authorities in Bahrain arrested two former parliament members of the Gulf kingdom's main Shiite opposition party as part of a wide crackdown on dissent, a senior party leader said Tuesday."

"Several members of the country's national football team were also detained and another 150 athletes, coaches and referees were suspended since April 5 for their alleged involvement in street protests."

"Bahrain is the home of the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, Washington's main counterweight against Iran's expanding military influence in the oil-rich Gulf."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110503/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bahrain_2

Maybe it is just me, but if there is a conspiracy, it is one to distract people from other important things and some of the nice things that our empires are doing.

**Edited to shorten link so that the page doesn't have to be scrolled side to side

Iamon lyme: Or you, who knows.. Jerome Corsi might solve who killed Kenny beyond a shadow of doubt. The Genesis arguers might wander if Eden is a historical tale and how man will see it again... but not in our lifetime.

But that's all cyclic talk

(V): The president didn't need to pamper to "conspiracy theory" because he initiated it. After that he could sit back and let straw men factory owners spin it for him. Not as subtle as you might imagine, but don't let that stop you from imagining.

Iamon lyme: What is your question.. do you know?? The President didn't pamper to conspiracy theory... oh no.... it's Watergate all over again!!

", because there would be no speculation to put to rest. He didn't just control the story, he inspired it."

Yes there would be.. the programming has been very subtle you probably missed it.

(V): I didn't dodge the message posted 2. May 2011, 18:41:15

Iamon lyme: Ok.. you are dodging a fact of life to somehow make art of your conspiracy theory? ..............

Is that what that Jerome Corsi does in his books, like the responsibility dodging extreme right wing sites.. "it's all Obama's fault.. the rest of history did not happen. Oh noooooo"

(V): My special ops forces found your straw man factory last night. We have captured many of your minions and are holding them hostage. They will be well cared for if you agree not to harm the remaining straw men at your factory. Logic clearly eludes you (2. May 2011, 18:41:15) so maybe you can be persuaded into releasing the remaining straw men in exchange for the ones we captured.

Tuesday: Unfortunately the Pakistanis have a distrust of the USA from being used as a "toy" in the past and then just dumped. Opinions generally of those who were leaving comments (from the site running a comments section) was trust had to be rebuilt. That Pakistan was not again being used as a "toy".

Tuesday: Hiding in plain..ish sight. He blended in with what I gather from the BBC news site were "ethnic Pashtun" who

"......are known to keep their women in strict purdah and that would explain the silence from that house. The Taliban are largely ethnically Pashtun and many come from the tribal areas in north-west Pakistan." ........ (to stop confusion with other ethnic groups in Pakistan)....

A bit embarrassing the compound of unusually high walls and security was only a few hundred yards from the Pakistan Military Academy. One could recon he had help from 'locals'.

Zeeshan, Islamabad, Pakistan
............Just viewed the international media and what is the most shocking and disappointing thing to me is that there is not a single word of appreciation for Pakistan and its sacrifices.

Not a single word of thanks for the Pakistani nation and its army. How disgusting!

The most sacrifices and efforts in the war on terror are and have been by Pakistan; and without the support of Pakistan, all this success of the US would be near to impossible. At least give a word of appreciation for the hundreds and thousands of martyred Pakistanis who have died in the war on terror.


Elog, Kabul, Afghanistan
..........his is a great news for every peace-wanting human being. The backbone of al-Qaeda is broken. We knew the culprit from the beginning.

I wish the anti-terrorism alliance could have listened to us a few years back, so they could have hunted the right person, at the right time and in the right place.

Artful Dodger: N' I'm quite sure there are some extreme Muslim groups feeling like you do.

Shame that blood lust needs millions of deaths.

Iamon lyme: So.. you are saying he has a driver licence and yet all these conspiracy theories kept on being given probability space in extremists heads!! What is going on in right wing land to be able to let it be such big news.

Some UK journalists recon it's took take the lime light off events in the Middle East as yet another USA supported gov gets heavy handed with it's people!!

Bernice: Nobody is in a particularly good state at the moment. Not the UK (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland).. nor the USA or Australia. And yes.. the wedding might be capable of generating a few 100 million pounds in tourist and service industry income within the UK and the rest of the world via logistics, etc.

Our growth GDP last year was not much less then your own countries. Also just as the snow last year effected the last quarter figures in the UK it is expected that Australia's latest growth results to be either 0% or less due to Mother Nature's hand.

(V): "..release and confirmation of Obama's long birth cert." 25% still don't believe what about his long birth cert? How long does it take for any bona fide U.S. citizen to provide a birth record? How long do you suppose it took for him to provide proof of identity and birth when getting his drivers license? Try getting one of those for only a song and a dance.

Artful Dodger: well as they are saying "Bin Laden may be dead, but El Qaeda is not" the fighting will go on and on ad infinitum. and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Iamon lyme: the figure I gave you was the cost of security for the wedding....well ONE of the costs that have been floating around the net anyway.

England is in such a bad economic position they needed something to try and boost that fact....the wedding appears to have been it, but it will be shortlived and "back to the poverty line" they will go.

Iamon lyme: Well, I'm looking at several estimates and taking an average of those estimates.. as I doubt at this present time a accurate figure can be obtained.. takes a few weeks or so for the police to cook their expenses!!

"think Bernice was telling me how much tax payers pay every year to keep the royal family in business."

Yes.. well. lol that cherry picked figure ignores the income (in excess of £260 million) that the UK Treasury gets from the Royal Family each year... ie $520,0000.000 .

.. It don't matter to extreme right wingers as it doesn't to extreme anti government groups. They are present in the USA and certain figures suggest a 25% "still don't believe" figure despite the release and confirmation of Obama's long birth cert.

(V): According to Jay Leno, the Queen felt that 65,000,000 was too much to shell out for a wedding in these uncertain economic times. If security came to about 40,000,000, then does this mean the wedding only cost the families 25,000,000? A mere pittance! I think Bernice was telling me how much tax payers pay every year to keep the royal family in business.. that was the figure I was trying to catch. As to you explaining in your own words the logic of Obamas lack of transparency.. "it don't matter" to whom?

LONDON — The royal wedding brought mixed results to retail, as the London crowds opted for Champagne, Pimm’s-fuelled celebrations and outdoor pursuits rather than shopping on Friday. But as soon as the celebrations were over, the shoppers and tourists came out in force.

“Friday was mixed, with tourists watching the wedding and celebrating,” said Jace Tyrell, communications director of the New West End Company, which represents businesses around Oxford, Regent and Bond Streets.

“But weekend sales have risen almost in the double-digits compared with last year from the influx of tourists. Between last Easter weekend and this one, we’re looking at a very good April.”

Stores including Selfridges, Jack Wills, and Burberry all saw a rise in footfall from the festivities.

“Pre-wedding day, our food hall saw some of our highest store traffic with sales to match in convenience, fresh, party food and cakes as well as fine wine, Champagne and spirits,” said Meave Wall, the store’s director.

“Throughout the weekend, fashion and accessories, including shoes, performed well and royal wedding memorabilia continued to sell through even post-wedding as customers were keen to secure a memento of this historic day,” she added.

Indeed, the tourist shops in town were stripped bare of mugs, t-shirts, and tea towels — the British name for a dishcloth. “We ran out of them and can’t get them anywhere now,” said one store owner in central London.

“The tourists come in to buy them as a cheap gift for friends back home, but the English all come in saying they need them to mop up the champagne at their parties,” he added. Jack Wills, the British brand that’s a favourite among posh college-aged students — more youthful versions of the royal couple — said sales in the run up to the wedding had been fantastic.

“Tourism was certainly a contributing factor, but the media interest surrounding the Jack Wills set — because of the wedding — definitely helped spur sales,” said a company spokesperson.

full article


I mean.. I was in London the day before ...only takes 30 mins by train, on the way back I stopped by Westminster and it was packed. Americans everywhere

Iamon lyme: Because as the statistics show .. it don't matter. A percentage will always feel he's lying. Regardless of it being written in mile high letters (see God's final message to the universe) they would still would not believe him. This is the reality of how brainwashed some people are in America, it's called extremism. It's present in all Countries.

As to the wedding.. yes we pay for the security, which was from various estimates about £40,000,000 (tops, Bernices figure ) yet at the same time created from the event 100's of millions in tourism revenue.

You did know that tourism from international travellers was £9,000,000,000 last year to London.

The Col: Never does in such conflicts... remember, we had Northern Ireland. In the end it didn't matter who did what as they all sides (IRA/Loyalists/Army/British Gov/ Irish supporters) .. and the rest of supporting 'actors' had blood on their hands. We still today have "The Real IRA" (who are not the real IRA) killing even after all the major parties have said "enough".

Bernice: I was 97% certain there is no literal goose laying golden eggs inside the palace walls. I would have been 100% certain, but was so busy chasing (V) down the rabbit hole I almost got lost. So, not even close to a billion dollars then? A mere pittance!

Iamon lyme: $163,000,000 (estimate)...just a drop in the hat for a country that is poverty ridden. LOL

(V): "The only bill the tax payer payed for was security." Right.The taxpayer is only tapped to pay for security at royal weddings. Thanks for clearing that up. Other than for security at weddings, our tax payers are not required to pony up money to support our royal family either. Well, except for that time Obama took Oprah for a ride on Air Force One, but that was a justifiable expense.

(V): ".. Is that so?" Yes, that is so. If it is not so, then in your own words please, explain how Obama honoring request for proof of citizenship would have triggered an investigation into proof of citizenship? Showing requested papers would not have put speculation to rest, because there would be no speculation to put to rest. He didn't just control the story, he inspired it. So in your own words please, explain the logic behind Obamas reluctance to not appear to be hiding anything?

Well, Hamas's version of "pouring petrol" is much less desirable than inhabiting disputed lands IMO, they have been known to do it literally, not figuratively, but I suppose that doesn't fit their new freedom fighter image

The Col: Aye, the Palestinians should. As to it being an opinion on the land nicking.. I'm basing my opinion on UN statements regarding the Gaza strip and West Bank. Even the Israeli government has admitted (through watching documentaries on the problem) that in some cases Israeli Jews are taking land that even they have a problem accepting the rationality of the rogue settlements.

Pouring petrol onto embers is not a good way of putting a fire out.

(V):The proposition that Israel is " nicking Palestinian land" is opinion.Israel rightfully not trusting Palestinian terrorist representation is not.Requasting an honest broker in negotiations is reasonable.I suggest they get their house in order before coming to the table,

The Col: True.... I would expect Hamas to condemn the killing, but they are an extreme group. Unfortunately as long as Israel keeps nicking Palestinian land they will get a voice.

(V): Hamas has condemed the killing, and this is the Palestinian leadership Israel has to deal with.

The Col: Well I can't hear any riots or (seeing as I live near a military base) gunfire as the Muslims in our area rise up. One I personally know is more concerned about his gadgets....

.. he's a computer nut.. loves Apple but hates Microsoft.

(V): re:"Perhaps it could be said that your bias is making you clueless"

Some will say anything for attention

Artful Dodger:

Pehaps you should read or remember...

"As we do, we must also reaffirm that the United States is not - and never will be - at war with Islam. I've made clear, just as President Bush did shortly after 9/11, that our war is not against Islam. Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader; he was a mass murderer of Muslims. Indeed, al-Qaeda has slaughtered scores of Muslims in many countries, including our own. So his demise should be welcomed by all who believe in peace and human dignity."


Perhaps it could be said that your bias is making you clueless.

Iamon lyme: Maybe it's all in Conservative American paranoia that he had something to hide and nowhere else. The focus on his birth certificate reminds me of an old Zen story of a monk accused of having a baby with an unmarried woman who said it was him to protect the real father.

His reply to all the accusations.. "Is that so?"
http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/isthatso.html

"Obama was in control of the story."

.. Is that so?

Artful Dodger: Then why did the Christian west teach them so well to kill?

.. Oh... It was Russians back then that they were originally taught to kill, I suppose being heathens it doesn't count in the eyes of some Western observers.