(V): Appeals to emotion are nonsense.  Hamas has to stop attacking first.  If they keep it up, they will be hunted down like the dogs they are and killed. 

My friend and colleague Jehad Mashhrawi is usually the last to leave our Gaza bureau. Hard-working but softly spoken, he often stays late, beavering away on a laptop that is rarely out of arm's reach. He has a cool head - unflappable, when others like me are flapping around him. He is a video editor and just one of our local BBC Arabic Service staff who make the office tick.

But on the Wednesday before last - only an hour or so after Gaza's latest war erupted with Israel's killing of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari - Jehad burst out of the editing suite screaming.

He sprinted down the stairs, his head in his hands, his face ripped with anguish. He had just had a call from a friend to tell him the Israeli military had bombed his house and that his 11-month-old baby boy Omar was dead.

Most fathers will tell you their children are beautiful. Omar was a picture-book baby.

Standing in what is left of his burnt-out home this week, Jehad showed me a photo on his mobile phone. It was of a cheeky, chunky, round-faced little boy in denim dungarees, chuckling in a pushchair, dark-eyed with a fringe of fine brown hair pushed across his brow.

"He only knew how to smile," Jehad told me, as we both struggled to hold back the tears. "He could say just two words - Baba and Mama," his father went on.

Also on Jehad's phone is another photo. A hideous tiny corpse. Omar's smiling face virtually burnt off, that fine hair appearing to be melted on to his scalp.

Jehad's sister-in-law Heba was also killed. "We still haven't found her head," Jehad said.

And his brother is critically ill in hospital with massive burns. His chances are not good.

Jehad has another son Ali, four years old, who was slightly injured. He keeps asking where his baby brother has gone.

Eleven members of the Mashhrawi family lived in the tiny breezeblock house in the Sabra district of Gaza City. Five people slept in one room. The beds are now only good for charcoal. The cupboards are full of heaps of burnt children's clothes.

On the kitchen shelves, there are rows of melted plastic jars full of Palestinian herbs and spices, their shapes distorted as if reflected from a fairground mirror. And in the entrance hall, a two-foot-wide hole in the flimsy metal ceiling where the missile ripped through.

Despite the evidence pointing towards an Israeli air strike, some bloggers have suggested it might have been a misfired Hamas rocket. But at that time, so soon after the launch of Israel's operation, the Israeli military says mortars had been launched from Gaza but very few rockets.

Mortar fire would not cause the fireball that appears to have engulfed Jehad's house.

Other bloggers have said that the damage to Jehad's home was not consistent with powerful Israeli attacks but the BBC visited other bombsites this week with very similar fire damage, where Israel acknowledged carrying out what it called "surgical strikes".

As at Jehad's home, there was very little structural damage but the victims were brought out with massive and fatal burns. Most likely is that Omar died in the one of the more than 20 bombings across Gaza that the Israeli military says made up its initial wave of attacks.

Omar was not a terrorist.

Of course every civilian death on either side - not just Omar's - is tragic. The United Nations says its preliminary investigation shows that 103 of the 158 people killed in Gaza were civilians. Of those, 30 were children - 12 of whom were under the age of 10. More than 1,000 people were injured.

The Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said every non-combatant death or injury was tragic and an "operational failure".

In Israel, too, there were fatalities: four civilians and two soldiers. There were also many injuries. But the fact the Israeli Ambulance Service was also reporting those suffering from anxiety and bruises is an indication of the asymmetric nature of the conflict.

Jehad's baby Omar was probably the first child to die in this latest round of violence. Among the last was a six-year-old boy, Abdul Rahman Naeem, who was killed by an Israeli attack just hours before the ceasefire was announced.

Abdul Rahman's father, Dr Majdi, is one of the leading specialist doctors at Gaza City's Shifa Hospital. The first he knew of his son's death was when he went to treat a patient, only to find it was his own boy.

Apparently, Dr Majdi had not seen Abdul Rahman for days. He had been too busy dealing with the wounded.

(V):Actually in this case, yes.

Artful Dodger: Yes.. killing always solves the problem.

Of course, we could just kill every Israeli and then the Muslims could just change their target to another group.  Eventually, when every people group is killed, then the Muslims would just start killing themselves (as they already do).  

(V): But it has nothing to do with Hamas bombing Israel.  Israel reacts to protects its citizens.  I say kill all of Hamas.   That will end the problem.  The if another group pops up, kill them all.

Artful Dodger:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/pfe/lowres/pfen274l.jpg

"Yeah well what about when the US kicked the Indians out of their native land and killed them indiscriminately?"

It's a parody on a peaceful nation..

Legitimate On Topic Poster:  But the Palestinian terrorists are dropping bombs on women and children in Israel and then hiding in homes and hospitals!

Red Herring Poster:  Yeah well what about when the US kicked the Indians out of their native land and killed them indiscriminately? 

(V): well what you consider spam I consider a legitimate response when someone tries to drag a red herring across the trail.

Artful Dodger: You might need help then..

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSK1vpxD7IIZ6ZgCsv7jS1hOICccj3XLjyXOCA-3KDo0XU8NYpY2wm12vlRCw

It's the only right thing to do

(V): Nope.  On the fence. 

Artful Dodger: So.. you are three lefts?

Artful Dodger: Not graphically. You are slipping or it's Sunday!!

(V): The other was red too

Artful Dodger: At least that one IS red!!

Any spam picks... Monty Python style??

(V):

Artful Dodger: Is it? That the abuse levels in the US are high is of no importance to you? It's much better just to complain about how Muslims.. sorry Soviets.. sorry Vietcong.. sorry Americans.. sorry Indians... sorry Mexicans... Spanish are?

Artful Dodger: Current history. The Taliban got their training from whom??


.. go on say it... it won't hurt to

(V):  red herring

(V):red herring

(V):red herring

Artful Dodger: Compared to the CIA?

Artful Dodger: Like Egypt? We were told until the uprising it was a great democracy. They were wonderful people!!

Anyways.. be careful. Some men in the US might get jealous and want the old days back when women were chained to the kitchen sink!!

.. it says in the Bible men rule.

Artful Dodger: what about the Muslims being killed in Burma?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uO4leI66Ko

(V): Not their land?  Says who?  The UN?  They are a disgrace. 

Now here's something to celebrate: 

Saudi Government To Provide Electric Shock Collars So Men Can Keep Wives From Leaving Home Without Permission

Artful Dodger: They are taking land that is not theirs. Did you not watch the video?

And yes they are killing civilians, hence the death toll being 100+ in the Gaza strip.

(V): Pressure on Israel? For what? They aren't lobbing bombs indiscriminately into neighborhoods and blowing up planes and blowing up buses. Are you nuts?

Artful Dodger: No.. it hasn't really been tried properly, the US has always vetoed any serious attempt by the UN to put pressure on Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fucpus065C4

Is it the Israeli influence in Washington that keeps something being done? It's well known they have spies in the USA!!

(V): Peace will never happen between muslims and Israel. It's delusional to think otherwise. As if what you have suggested hasn't happened. You couldn't get three weeks of genuine peace. You can't change hearts.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yeah, I read. Just as I read the problem starts back before a little, with the first influx of 'Israelites' in the period after WWI.

Also I read, that Jewish freedom fighters just after WWII started a terrorist campaign against the British administration. Bombing, assassination and violent uprisings led to the British having to have a force of 100,000 troops.

"When children grow up looking at those things, they grow up hating each other. Israeli children grow up afraid of Palestinian attacks. Palestinian children grow up terrified of Israel's military might. That is a recipe for eternal mutual fear and hatred."

Don't I know it.

"Even if western empires could do something, three generations of war have made sure that the old wounds will never heal."

I cannot agree with that. Alot of time would be required to heal the wounds.. decades. But it is possible. But not without a third party acting as peace keepers.

(V):

> such hostile countries as said do surround Israel

The truth is that Israel is in trouble. It was in trouble from the start. First, the British Empire made a big cokup of the whole thing. They used to control Palestine and Israel after WW II. They just granted Israel statehood wihtout even considering that there were other people living there too. The British Empire acted in the traditional way that empires do. They made a decision wihtout even considering the local population of their colony.

As soon as Israel was formed, the locals became angry at being displaced. Since all western empires were supporting Israel and doing nothing to rectify a growing problem, all the neighboring countries declared war. Now we have Palestianians displaced and living under an occupation. Israel is isolated in its territory, sturggling as best as they can to protect themselves. Western empires continue to be ineffectual in their efforts to make things better because rather than being fair and impartial, western empires prefer to play a game of geopolitics and strategic alliances.

Watching TV says all about why Israel and Palestine will never get along. A group of Palestinian school children are standing next to the blown-up remais of their school. An Israeli fighter jet blew it up. Then on the other side there is a bus blown up by a Palestinian insurgent in Tel Aviv. I see women and children standing around looking at that wreckage. When children grow up looking at those things, they grow up hating each other. Israeli children grow up afraid of Palestinian attacks. Palestinian children grow up terrified of Israel's military might. That is a recipe for eternal mutual fear and hatred. My heart goes out to those people because I know nothing will get better as long as western empires countinue to favor only one side over the other. Even if western empires could do something, three generations of war have made sure that the old wounds will never heal.

Übergeek 바둑이: I had heard people mention it's been going on that long, but I wouldn't have thought a feud could go on for so long.

"by all accounts, are a nuclear superpower just like their opponents are!"

mmm.... that is a just a rumour. One that seems to be true, otherwise such hostile countries as said do surround Israel could get together and invade any time.

... If that is, the US presence wasn't there.

(V):

> Technically.. it's been going on for decades. That's how I look at it.

Technically it has been going on for the last 4,000 years. Genesis is clear on how Abraham went to war with his neighbors as soon as he had left Chaldea. Nobody wants to admit it but this is the product of a war culture that goes back for several thousand years, and belief in religions that turn a blind eye to violence because "god is on our side".

What really strikes me about this conflict is that it is really a fair fight. Obviously Palestians receive as much money and weapons from the West as Israelis do. In fact, those home-made rockets do tilt the balance of power in favor of the Palestinians, who, by all accounts, are a nuclear superpower just like their opponents are!

The Col: Technically.. it's been going on for decades. That's how I look at it.

"Politically speaking you are well aware of the many differing opinions in Israel, and specifically The Knesset in regards to finding a lasting peace, but when it comes to defending against attacks, they unite."

Well aware, n' yes.. I expect them to unite. It'd be quite an event if a significant portion said no retaliations.

(V):re : " Although Jabari's killing signalled the start of Israel's offensive, it was preceded by spates of deadly cross-border violence which saw Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas's Qassam Brigades, firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel and the Israeli military shelling Gaza and carrying out air strikes."

Exactly , they started it, and Israel was well within their rights to respond.Politically speaking you are well aware of the many differing opinions in Israel, and specifically The Knesset in regards to finding a lasting peace, but when it comes to defending against attacks, they unite.

The Col: Exactly as they have done unfortunately.

"Who started this recent round of bombings?"

""Israel's offensive on Gaza began with an air strike that killed the commander of Hamas's military wing, Ahmed Jabari, whom it accused of responsibility for "all terrorist activities against Israel from Gaza" over the past decade.

IDF ... subsequently announced the start of Operation Pillar of Defence, which it said was intended to protect Israeli civilians from rockets and mortars fired by militants in Gaza, as well as cripple Hamas's capability to launch attacks.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the operation was launched because he could no longer "accept a situation in which Israeli citizens are threatened by the terror of rockets"....

....Hamas, which has governed Gaza since 2007, said Jabari's assassination had "opened the gates of hell".

Although Jabari's killing signalled the start of Israel's offensive, it was preceded by spates of deadly cross-border violence which saw Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas's Qassam Brigades, firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel and the Israeli military shelling Gaza and carrying out air strikes.

Some observers have noted that the offensive was launched only nine weeks before parliamentary elections in Israel. Others have alleged that Operation Pillar of Defence was intended to undermine the Palestinian plan to request non-member observer state status at the UN later in November.

>>>>>> Do you agree?

(V): Who started this recent round of bombings?

And how do you think Israel should have responded?

Artful Dodger: So a hijacked plane with a bomb on it, killing civilians is different from a bomb on the bus how? Less casualties?? Smaller explosion??

The PLO were at it before Hamas, the PLO then junked the attitude and started working towards a deal. I'm not saying the 'talks' were done with everyone holding hands singing songs.. but it was a leap from an active terrorist group.

Hamas needs their cause taken away, they need to be not the source of basic goods in Gaza that Israel and the 'democratic' Egypt are blocking. Hamas are bringing them through tunnels and the people of Gaza want and quite often, need these goods for a normal life.

... normality tends not to breed terrorists. It's not rocket science.

(V): I never said anything about planes. I said bombs from Gaza. Israel should never have given up Gaza or ANY territory. Israel has never shed blood without just cause. It's the terrorists that always start things by killing innocent people. Did you miss the recent bus being blown up? And Hamas celebrated. Hamas needs to be wiped out completely.

Artful Dodger: Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a conventional name, among others, for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The region is also known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el),[7] the Holy Land and the Southern Levant,[8] and historically has been known by other names including Canaan, Zion, Syria Palaestina, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin and Outremer.

The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the mandate period. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories.[9] ......

In 1830, on the eve of Muhammad Ali's invasion, the Ottoman Porte transferred control of the sanjaks of Jerusalem and Nablus to Abdullah Pasha, the governor of Acre. According to Silverburg, in regional and cultural terms this move was important for creating an Arab Palestine detached from Syria (bilad al-Shams). According to Pappe, it was an attempt to reinforce the Syrian front in face of Muhammad Ali's invasion.[41][42] Two years later, in 1832, Palestine was conquered by Muhammad Ali's Egypt, but in 1840, Britain intervened and returned control of the Levant to the Ottomans in return for further capitulations. The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration and the Revival of the Hebrew language. The movement was publicly supported by Great Britain during World War I with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

The British began their Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1915. The war reached southern Palestine in 1917 progressing to Gaza and around Jerusalem by the end of the year.

" And when Israel gave up Gaza, that's when the bombs started."

So the PLO never hijacked planes, etc before hand?

"Stop making excuses for the terrorists."

Then stop proclaiming the Israelis hands are without blood.. Even our UK government has had to admit the Israelis can be wrong. Like when they broke an agreement not to use UK passports to hide the identity of assassins sent out by Israeli intelligence.

(V): There has never been a Palestinian state ever. They've never owned the land. And when Israel gave up Gaza, that's when the bombs started. You don't bomb civilians. Stop making excuses for the terrorists.

The Col: Like some Israelis are raised from birth. Gotta love Louis Theroux..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb652kwbcic&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=lX18zUp6WPY

The Col: It's an "us and them" an "ism" .. In NI it was just in the end about Protestant and Catholic.

Yes.. I'm not saying the blowing up of a bus is ok.. It's not. But the death toll at the moment seems to be heavily Palestinian.

It's tit for tat imo now.

Artful Dodger: I cannot agree. While a good sized proportion is the fault of militant Palestinian groups, some of the policies Israel has taken, alot of the ignoring of basic rights for Palestinians to keep land they own and not have anyone to stop Israeli citizens driving them out of their homes and/or land.

.... The list of prohibited goods. While weapons is obvious, some of the others seem .. excessive. The relaxation of the prohibited list in 2010 was a good step.. that it was 5 years too late so Hamas didn't get more support.

Hi guys I am new here, found some interesting discussion topic here, really excited for further discussions.

The Col: My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking it will never change.