You have my deepest respect, Clay. I consider the ability to admit one's mistake one of the greatest characteristics of a human being.

Walter Montego:Yes, please, gravy on those potatoes.

I just fell into the trap of not considering what others were saying and being so dang sure I was correct. It will be a while before I make that mistake again. The one thing I have learned on BK is, there are a lot of intelligent people on here that deserve and need to be listened to.

I have just never considered cheating and assumed that no one else would either. I love learning the games and improving and developing new skills. What you, Jules and Pedro said makes a lot of sense. I was JUST thinking of the DICE ODDS. My Bad.

ClayNashvilleTn: Oh, there's plenty of odds to the dice, but there's lots more to Backgammon than that. If you don't see that, you'll not advance to the top of the list any time soon. I'm a Craps player from way back, and what I know about odds has helped me make a decision on a move from time to time, but the important things about Backgammon and what seperate it from a game of pure chance such as Craps, that Jules was talking about will determine who's the better player over the long run. Anybody can get lucky at rolling the dice, but in Craps it only matters for each game or roll depending on how you're betting. In Backgammon there's planning involved and sometimes one's plans change because of good or bad fortune during the game. In Craps, the important thing is to get lucky and proper money management. There's no planning gamewise, unless you call taking odds on the shooter's point planning, that is. :)

Now, as far as a program helping one play Backgammon, what is so hard to understand about that? If you play just one move ahead without thinking further into the game, you're not going to do well when you play me. I'm sure a computer could be designed to pretend every roll possible for a few turns and then use some sort of decision table to pick the best course of action considering the roll that it has on the turn at that moment. That's what I'd do.<>>>>

AS I'm typing this I see that you've done some research on it. Would you like some mashed potatoes with that crow? I hate when that happens to me, but it helps me learn things. :)

I think I must hold the record for apologies. I wish all these months I had kept count. I bet I could be in the McGinnis world record book by now!

OH, well a little humbling never hurt anyone. It keeps us grounded.

ClayNashvilleTn: :)

Andre Faria: Andre Faria:You are exactly right. I was speaking when I should have been listening. I started playing in August and thought I had it all figured out.

In all honesty I do apologize to everyone.

Fencer you need to recant your answer to TULIP.
Dang I can't be the only one looking bad in this exchange.

ClayNashvilleTn: Hum... I think you must apologize... LOL

I just went on Google and found several programs. I honestly didn't think they would help. You guys need to copy and paste this confession in a private file for later use.

"I WAS WRONG THIS ONE TIME"

I love my crow well done. Try to get the middle done as well. I also ask that you remove all feathers first.

ClayNashvilleTn: I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

You guess wrong.............
One of the world's best Backgammon players think that: "I have no doubt that GNU Backgammon 2-ply would show a positive result if given enough time vs. any human player in match play."
--Neil Kazaross

From http://www.gnubg.org

ClayNashvilleTn: No, because position can demand that you ignore what he might roll. Only maybe in 6 or 7 turns may I be interested and only if he drops a free one that I can knock off.

Hey even I can win backgammon against a computer! Ive played a few times against a computer & it was soooooooo easy it was boring!

People using programs to cheat usually don't tell on themselves, so maybe there is another reason he told you he using a program. Anyone using a program learns little about playing, but for some people winning is more important than anything else. I've played chess with people I know were using programs for making moves. They aren't weren't smarter after playing with programs than they were before they started, so as far as I am concerned I'm not the one who loses something.

Why would he tell you he was cheating if he was really cheating?

OK, spill the beans, I'll play him and beat him like a drum? hehehehehe well maybe, I am still learning.

Jules: all based on the odds of what your opponent "MIGHT" roll on his next turn. All good players figure that in their head Jules.

It is a way to get your money. I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

ClayNashvilleTn: Backgammon is also about position building blocks and many other things, whether it's better to move the back counters, to leave them them there, whether to make a run, etc.

Jules: They both are all about the roll of the dice. In that essence they are the same.

ClayNashvilleTn: We are not talking about Craps, we are talking about Backgammon.

Andre Faria:
They can predict the future.....
That's why it is cheating

Pedro Martínez: Not since I told them the odds. It is an odds game! That same computer would also tell an inexperienced person how to roll craps. The trick is to learn the odds and learn the game. The guy with the computer will never learn, "IF" he indeed has one.

how can these programes simulate the roll dice. I mean, how do they know my roll dice?

Clay: Using a REAL good backgammon program can help a lot, especially not so experienced players. Like they will tell you what's the best move when you roll 64 as your opening roll...

ClayNashvilleTn: Clay there are Powerful programs that can defeat the top Backgammon players out there... This is a fact.

They are not free mind you :)

Lets look at what we know for fact.

There are no useful programs that can help in any dice game.

Fencer advised you to not to worry about it because he knows that for a fact.

Don't get upset over some clown claiming he has one because he doesn't.

If he does he probably needs one to get out of bed too.

This is a non issue.

philip: Not as much if you are using a program if nothing at all really as the person cheating has not done the work. But.. on the other hand if you beat someone who is cheating. :)

Lamby: If they are using something to aide them in any dice game, I know where they can get some Snake Oil that cures every disease known to man. Send me $50.00 and I will send it to you.

Las Vegas wouldn't exist if that was true.

Jules: but WHAT do our rankings mean,on here if people are using programmes??..what??

Lamby: i couldnt agree more - well said

I don't understand, why does anyone want to use a programe? Surely it takes all of the fun out of playing? If you win its not even your victory! Besides winning shouldn't be the most important thing when playing a game, in my opinion, it should be about enjoying the game! Its not life or death, its just a bit of fun! Well thats what I think anyway! :o)

philip:If he has one, it's because he failed 9th grade Math. You dont need one. Your better players dont use them. They know the odds from books, the internet, or just common knowledge. They use the odds in making their moves. Copy what I just sent you and use it. That isn't cheating. it's knowing the odds of an opponent landing on you if you move your piece in any location on the board.

philip & Jules, I'll have to take your word for that, I've never seen a backgammon programme running. Maybe I'm missing something.

philip: From what I read he gets a neural net program that learns by playing against itself.

And yes, I did post more info, but I thought best not to in the end.

ClayNashvilleTn: so,where does that put mr rubbish player useing a computer programme to make moves,exactly????????

All a computer could tell you is:

There are two ways to make the three and eleven.
There are three ways to make the four and ten.
There are four ways to make the five and nine.
There are five ways to make the six and eight.
There are six ways to make the seven.

Your better players know this from experience and thus have the higher scores.

harley: thats not true programmes if your not good CAN and DO help,also what does our ranking mean if using said programmes is allowed???

harley: No a program that is trained to play the dice in the best fashion in backgammom would help... But it spoils the fun of playing the game.

Tulip: b>Tulip:There has been a bit of confusion on whether someone has figured a system in Ponds too, but it was admitted Friday that it wasn't true. There's a lot of TALK about such things. It would be impossible to have any kind of aide in any dice game.

There is a site on the Internet for choosing the right move in Backgammon based on the odds of a particular number being rolled by your opponent. But that's just an odds thing and most people experienced in any dice game know the possibilities of each roll just by experience.

Can I ask which game it is? Dice games bring to mind backgammon, where no programme would help!

Fencer: I agree with Tulip,I dont think you should be able to use programs to play here,thats why I play on these site and dont buy a chess/backgammon game!!

sorry Fencer but that stinks!

Actually, what kind of program can help in a dice-based game?
The paragraph in the UA will be improved anyway.

Oh, oops Sorry!

harley: Hmmmm?..Fencer just answered me and says its ok???
im amazed!. and will tone down how many games i play here!...in fact after that i might not bother anymore ;(

Tulip, if you send the game ID to Fencer he can advise further.

ive found in the past.. that its a waste of time reporting this..

Tulip: No it's not. He risks being banned and his rating removed (User Agreement).

can someone tell me if this is allowed here?
my opponant has just told me he's using one and i find this annoying!!
i play against people not a program...
<disgruntled Tulip>

Walter Montego:



1) My view of the matter was if someone is sincerely wanting resolve, I feel the person that felt they were wronged would raise the issue and not a friend.

2) There are channels to follow when one has a complaint. It is requested that they go through the Globs, if the existing Mod doesn't resolve the issue.

3) This issue was between a Moderator and Globs not a member and a moderator.

4) There are several places that desire this type conversation.

a)The Mod Squad
b)Moderator Complaints
c)Flame room

These 3 places have done a lot to open up undesirable conversations in public and have received noticeable results.

They are VERY open even down to discussing all the gory details.

All Mods do not feel the same on this issue. I hesitate not to discuss any issue that I am up to speed on and it is my feelings if we cannot take the heat for the decision we make then we need to think twice before making one.

I believe if your trying to develop a customer base through good will and offering a friendly place to enjoy and play games, then all of those disagreements, some found to be true but many to be false, that potential customers do not need to think...........Dang, what's going on here? Is this all they do here?

This isn't about us guys. It's about BrainKing and keeping it a first class professionally ran site. Airing dirty laundry in public is not Kosher. Keep it out of the public's eye and resolve it behind closed doors.

Present your case professionally and with facts. Then when you win you will know, it wasn't because of all your friends that you could muster and rile to support you, but because in all honesty you were totally innocent as charged and you now stand vindicated.

To handle it here in public hoping for a human wave of outcry will only let the members see your true intentions.

harley: What is this swamped thing you fear? Is there something wrong with the scroll feature of your computer? Plus, in this case I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people are interested as no one wants to run afoul of the moderators and by reading it here one may learn what to avoid. As for the personal posts, those are what the moderators are supposed to take care, aren't they? All the rest of the posts have a legitimate place if they're on topic or are part of the general conversation. You guys moderate with too heavy of a hand at times and completely stifle things with even a small comment. No one likes taking the time to compose a post only to be rebuked by a moderator that has grown weary of the posts even when the posts in question are on topic. Posting is an almost umlimited resource here and yet you guys would limit it to as little as possible from the way you go about your business at times.