i'm online,do you think we can finish this game?

According to the "advanced chess" as mentioned here earlier: I'm playing now on playchess.de, where one can play in the "human chess league" (computer support not allowed) and/or in the "advance chess league" (computer support allowed) and/or in "computer chess league" (human support not allowed). I'm playing now, after few HCL games, in one ACL tourney. And to be honest -- it's quite boring... :-)

in my high time of correspondance in the 80s, people told you after all
whether they are using a program or not - during those years they could compete
only with amateur-1-level though - usually rank 2-3 in groups - saw none winning. ~*~

Again to the theme "using computers in correspondence chess" a statement from the "Faq" of the German Correspondence Chess federation (Bdf) in the original language(without comment,perhaps can anybody translate?):

Es dürfen alle Hilfsmittel eingesetzt werden, angefangen bei Büchern, fortgesetzt über Schachdatenbanken, selbst Computerschachprogramme dürfen eingesetzt werden (deren Nutzen im Fernschach aber insbesondere von wenig erfahrenen Spielern oder Außenstehenden deutlich überschätzt wird). Natürlich hat auch der eine oder andere Vereinskamerad beim Spielabend des örtlichen Schachvereins den einen oder anderen guten Tipp.
Beim Fernschach stand und steht der wissenschaftliche Aspekt der "Suche nach der schachlichen Wahrheit" noch weit mehr im Vordergrund als im Nahschach. Deshalb war der Einsatz jeglicher Hilfsmittel und die Beteiligung von anderen Spielern stets erlaubt (hinsichtlich der Computerprogramme kontrovers diskutiert; diese waren zunächst nicht zugelassen). Die Möglichkeit, aufgrund der großzügigen Bedenkzeit und der erlaubten Nutzung beliebiger verfügbarer Ressourcen leichte Fehler zu vermeiden und hoch qualifizierte Partien zu spielen, macht einen besonderen Reiz des Fernschachspiels aus.

Zu bedenken ist in diesem Zusammenhang, dass selbst dann, wenn ein Verbot des Computereinsatzes bestehen würde, dessen Einhaltung ohnehin praktisch nicht kontrollierbar und zu ahnden wäre.
Der Computereinsatz beim Fernschach sollte so verstanden werden, dass er den Spieler bei dessen eigenen Analysen hilfreich durch Zugvorschläge oder Nachprüfung unterstützt, aber keinesfalls anstelle des Spielers die Partie spielt. In dem Augenblick nämlich, wo ein Fernschachspieler zum Handlanger seines Computers wird und der Zug nicht mehr Produkt seiner geistigen Schöpfung ist, wird das Fernschachspiel für ihn zu Farce. Schon bald wird dann ein solcher Schachfreund sich nicht mehr über den Sieg seines Computers freuen können; vielmehr wird er sich über die sinnlosen Porto- oder Onlinekosten und die Zeitverschwendung mehr und mehr ärgern und den Computer beiseite stellen.

9 posts deleted ... please do not flame on this public board.

are useful idiots, I agree. Chess programs have been a first approach to some
artificial intelligence in british colleges after WW2 ... egoshooters say thank you. ~*~

I am curious to what you mean by that Ed???

QuoUsque: Wow, I didn't know that checkers is so sofisticated game with special openings, historical games and so on - as chess, for me it was just a game for kids. I looked at Amazon now and I've found (and ordered :-)) two books about checkers. It's very interesting, thanks for your posting! :-)

Ad computerized chess players: To be honest, I like more and more the Kasparov's idea of "advanced chess" mentioned by Cassius. I'd like to try (at least) one game with computer support, rated or not, against some man&machine opponent. Anyone interested?

Who are the people who openly admit to using computer programs?? So I can avoid them.

Thank You, I am signed up. :-)

I took it down to change some items. Going back up tonight. Thanks for the interest.

Where is this tournament listed ? Didn't see it in Tournament list.

There is a new chess tournament for people of all levels ready for sign up today if you are interested. Good luck.

never've tried 'active' blitz - thought it takes more time typing than it gives chances ~*~

There was nothing mentioned about fees.

- did I get that right actually ? ~*~

Topically to this theme :

"Freestyle Blitz Tournament on August 7, 2004
Ingo Althofer und Timo Klaustermeyer

To win blitz games by the help of programs or grandmasters counts as cheating. Not so here! In our Freestyle Tournament teams with arbitrary composition are invited. If Kasparov is just sitting on your couch, please, let him help. Or take proposals by Shredder or Junior. All possible participants are welcome: single humans, single computers, but also teams
with arbitrarily many humans and computers and arbitrary decision structures.
Short Description

7 rounds CH-system with 7 min + 2 sec/move thinking time;
Organizers: Prof. Dr. Ingo Althofer and Timo Klaustermeyer Venue: ChessBase Server (Schach.de)
Begin: Saturday, August 7, 2004, 15:00 h Middle European Summer Time
Address for Applications: freestyleblitz@web.de
Deadline for application: Tuesday, August 3, 2004, 20:00 h
Notification for Participants: until Wednesday, August 4, 2004, 22:00 h
Limitation: At most 40 teams will play
Teams from all over the world are invited.
Event languages are German and English.

In the sequel each participant will be called "team".
In the application the following data have to be given:

(a) true name of the team-leader (the team leader has to be a human), postal address and email address.
The address data will be treated confidentially and not given to other persons.

(b) name of the ChessBase account of the team

Also in case of single computer programs a human has to be the team leader!

Prizes
1. Rank: 500 ChessBase Dukates
2. Rank: 250 ChessBase Dukates
3. Rank: 125 ChessBase Dukates

For the ranking within the CH-system the server software and its "fine-rankings" are used. Prizes are not split.

Important
Each team really has only 7 minutes + 2 sec/move, as is counted down by the Server clock. There are no bonus times
for communication within a team.

The referee panel for the Freestyle Tournament consists of the following three persons:
Ingo Althofer, Lars Bremer, Timo Klaustermeyer

Cheaters, be warned!
"Freestyle" only means that the use of computers and human team members is legal. But, this does not hold for tricks of manipulation. For instance, collecting thinking time or stealing time from the opponent by network tricks is forbidden. Cheaters will be excluded without possibility of revision.
Right of Secrecy
Nobody has to lay open the structure or members of his team.
However, we would be happy, when after the event many participants report about their teams and experiences.
A last word
When this experimental tournament runs well, there will probably be successor events for Freestyle blitz."

a life form consisting of 6 or more legs and no brain

As "centaur"? Who in the tandem is the brain and who is the ass? :-)

Hmmm, actually not a bad idea... If I'm not wrong, the most chess programs can suggest more possible moves and the "operator" has to choose one of them.

Btw,it was Kasparows suggestions for a new form of an otb-tournement some years ago: He suggested that the two players should play with a computerprogram (as "centaur") against eachother. He called this chess "advanced chess"....

if i could program better, i'd take a shot at dark..it would be a real challenge.

and why couldn't there be a dark chess program? the difference is only in the evaluation which is based on probabilities rather than real positions. I don't know if anyone actually wrote one, but the project sounds interresting. I'll try to do it myself, the next time I'm young again...

and there ARE backgammon playing programs.

WhisperzQ is right...there is always a chance you'll be playing a prog. Maybe there is even one for dark chess out there. But most variants have very weak progs that 1600-1700 level players can beat consistently. Personally I am rated lowest in progable games, so I think I'm playing against progs, but it doesn't bother me, there are always ways to steer clear of them. Or, as BB said, you can take the enlightened attitude that you don't mind playing them no matter what.

This discussion has been around before and will be around again. All the points made are valid. My recollection was that it would be acceptable for people to use whatever aids they wanted to, but, to be polite, they should state what aids they do use, particularly if asked ... but there is no certainty in a cyber world.

My preference is to play variations where the use of a program is of little value as the software is either non-existant or insufficiently adavanced to be of consequence. I also like to play these variations as it tends to bring the "masters" a little back to the field as they do not have any "books" in either their mind or written to follow.

BB: As many player's prefer games without computer moves for either side but cannot guarantee such will be the case, you can request that type of game in a text message when placing a new game in the waitng area. If you suspect that someone was using a computer anyway, then you can just avoid playing them anymore. A good indicator is when their level of play changes dramatically at some point during the game, usually when they see they are headed for losing. I don't think anyone frowns upon the use of opening books or data bases. They help improve our skills and at some point we must leave the book and grasp understanding of the position we are playing.

Schachmdmt, that is the problem : You cannot know how often the user looks in the chessprogram, only one time,two times or always.In one game he has easy positions in the next game the positions are very complicated for him.
The same is to differentiate between using database (like Chessbase) and chessprogram (like Fritz).You can also use Chessbase with an engine and Fritz as database too.You must put only one button and therefor this all is "wishi-washi".
Me for myself I would welcome if a l l players would play without programs.But this is completely unrealistic, because you cannot look in the player`s living-room.That`s why it is better to have no kind of prohibitions and every player should play with the helps,which he wants.This is the official point of view of the ICCF at the moment,because the chances are equal again.

It is a general problem of online chess playing communities, that some pleople use their chess programs as seconds.
I know some chess communities, and always after some time it was clear, when somebody used a program. So the community admin was contacted and he deleted the computer player.
In my opinion it is OK to take some looks in books, e.g. for opening variations or for endgames. Sometimes I also check online opening repositories, such as chess base.
But if someone ONLY use a program to play, it is fatal, should not be allowed. Now, we cannot control this, but as I wrote: After some time it will get clear, if somebody only use a program.
We should be honest, and I always tell my opponent, if the time for the next move will be longer, because I want to anlyze the game deeper. In one case I also used Fritz to check an endgame but I previous declared, that I want to draw the game.

Redsales: No, no, I have no problem with playing against any sort of help, I'd say it's problem of the other player if he/she want serve only as an output device for some engine or a servant for somebody third. I'm trying (well, with little effort :-)) to improve MY PLAY and it doesn't really matter, wheather my opponent is using any sort of help (even Fritz) or not. We are not playing for money or eternal fame, are we? ;-) -- I'm only asking to be sure *I'm not breaking any rule or agreement here* if I'm ocassionally using books or/and database. I think, Rabbitoid answered my question (Thanks for the answer, R.!) exactly so as I understand the habits. I needn't have a guilty conscience about using my library or database.

If you study the rules of Brainking you can see that there are no prohibitions to use any helps.
Neither books,nor databases,nor computerprograms. So like you say we play a kind of correspondence chess here and the International Correspondence Chess (ICCF) rules also have no prohibitions (alike the rules of our German national federation - Bdf).
So it is not cheating to use any kind of helps.

The simple problem is if you make prohibitions you must have a real control! And this control ist not possible in correspondence chess until now. That`s why it is better to have no prohibitions, otherwise you make the most players to cheaters and this cannot make sense.

For people who are against all kind of helps they can play "Livechess" (face to face) at www.playchess.com,www.icc.com, www.chessgate.de (the last is for free),where all kind of helps are completely forbidden.

bishop, the only way to be assured that you're not playing against help, consultation or electronic, is to play Dark Chess. Otherwise, it's totally up in the air. I know of many players here rated 2100+ that have admitted to cyborging. If dark doesn't suit you, try ones with weaker progs such as anti, amazons or ones where no one uses progs, like backgammon!

surprisingly enough there seems to be no rule here against outside help in any form. unlike other sites, Fencer seems to adopt the sensible attitude that since you can't check or enforce it, there's no point in having a rule against it.

there are several good players here that declare openly that they are in "cyborg" mode (that is, basically, human aided by program).


you'll find that correspondence chess clubs have varying attitudes towars computer aided play. one club I belong to, IECC, has adopted the rule that calculating moves is forbidden, but database search is equivalent to book search, and therefore allowed. as for me, I've adopted the same principle.

Hi, I have a fundamental question:
We are here playing some sort of correspondence chess, right? It is clear, that no computer programs (Fritz, ChessMaster etc.) are allowed, no doubt. But is it ok to consult books and/or databases, especially in the opening, or would it be considered as cheating?
If doing my moves from home, I'm looking often into NCO/BCO and I don't think, I'm doing something against the rules. But I'm asking the audience to be sure (and eventually to stop it).

(15,30,45,60 min for the whole game) together at the same server : www.schacharena.de It is a playing without client,only webbased but unfortunately only in the German language till now.Perhaps can we have both possibilities of playing here in Bk too anytime?

Any chess players interested in joining a chess tournament commencing in May can join up here, I have created 2 tournaments: one with a BKR greater than 1900 (no unrated players) and one with a BKR less than 2000 (no unrated players). Any person who is in between 1900 and 2000 can join where he or she feel they belong. I have created 2 links at the bottom of this message. Good luck to all that enter.

Over 1900 Chess Tournament
Under 2000 Chess Tournament

Tournament designers---check into Chess and ChessVariants Clearinghouse to get info to chess players of all tags.

I want announce,that you can download the Livechess-client Chessgate now in the new version 2.1. Chessgate (www.chessgate.de) is from Germany and also in the english language. It is usable to play livegames ,as interface for free engines (gnu chess and others) and for e-mail games.Mostly 100 people are online(Europeen daytime) and want play short games! (It is completely free!)
Perhaps we see us there for a five minutes or an half an hour match :)?

Internet Chess Club presents Dos Hermanas V
March 6th through the 14th

THE Internet Chess Tournament of 2004!

* Free International Online Chess Tournament
* Thousands of dollars in prizes
* Over 150 Grand Masters and International Masters
* Over 1000 players competing

For more information check out:
http://www.doshermanas.net, http://www.chessclub.com/help/DosHermanas, and
http://www.chessclub.com/news/1747

For the fifth time, the Internet Chess Club (ICC) is hosting the annual
Internet Chess Tournament "Ciudad de Dos Hermanas". This year's cash prize
fund has been increased to EUR 6,100 (about $7,750), plus ICC membership
prizes.

Entry is completely FREE. You don't even need to be a paying member of ICC
to compete. Just follow the instructions at the bottom of this message to
sign up for an free trial of ICC. During your trial you can play in any or
all of the twelve Dos Hermanas qualifying tournaments and enjoy ICC's other
features and activities.

From March 6 through the 11th, there will be two Swiss-system qualifying
tournaments each day, beginning at 1:00 PM and 8:00 PM EST. You can take
part in any or all of the tournaments. Winners of the qualifying
tournaments and the 20 best-scoring other players advance to the knockout
finals beginning March 13th. The games will be blitz chess with each player
getting 8 minutes to make their moves and with 2 seconds added to each
player's time after each move.

This tournament gives everyone the chance to compete in a field of world
class players! Last year, the tournament had record participation. 67 Grand
Masters and 103 International Masters took part in a field of 1,117 players
from 75 countries! Every Dos Hermanas tournament has been bigger than the
last and Dos Hermanas V will be THE internet chess tournament of 2004.

If you wish to play, rules and entry forms are at
http://www.doshermanas.net (click the poster graphic on the far right). You
will also find information on previous tournaments there.

Make sure to register early. Your registration is valid for all qualifying
tournaments, but does not obligate you to play. Log on to ICC 15 minutes
before the beginning of any qualifying tournament and you will
automatically be paired with an opponent.

This event is sponsored by the Dos Hermanas City Council, the Municipal
Foundation for Sport of Dos Hermanas, EDAMI (Miguel Illescas Chess School),
and the Internet Chess Club at www.chessclub.com.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Instructions For Participating in Dos Hermanas V

1. Visit http://www.doshermanas.net, click the poster graphic on the
far right, then click on a link to choose your language.

2. Click on the link that says "Click here to register". Follow the
onscreen instructions until you get to the "ICC: Dos Hermanas Internet
Tournament 2004 Registration Form"

3. If you don't have an account on ICC, click on the link that says
"Register an ICC name". The "Chessclub.com Registration" page opens in a
separate window. Follow the onscreen instructions to complete your ICC
registration. Be sure and download and install the BlitzIn interface
software as instructed.

4. Once you have registered an ICC name, return to the window with the
"ICC: Dos Hermanas Internet Tournament 2004 Registration Form". Follow the
onscreen instructions to complete your Dos Hermanas registration.

5. You may begin using your ICC free trial immediately. Log onto ICC using
the BlitzIn interface software and enjoy ICC's many features and activities.

6. To participate in any of the twice daily Dos Hermanas qualifying
tournaments from March 6th through the 14th, log on to ICC 15 minutes
before the tournaments begin at 1:00 PM or 8:00 PM Eastern Time. You will
be automatically assigned an opponent for your first match. It may take a
few minutes for your opponent to log on. Once both you and your opponent
have logged on, your first game of the tournament will begin. If your
opponent does not log on you will receive a forfeit win for that round.

7. When the first round is over you need only remain online and wait. You
will automatically be assigned an opponent for your next match. While you
wait you may explore and enjoy ICC's many other features and activities.

If you have any questions, select the "Ask a question" option from
BlitzIn's Help drop down menu. Look for your question and your answer in
the console window.

We look forward to seeing you at the Dos Hermanas V Internet Chess
Tournament, March 6th through the 14th on the Internet Chess Club!

For more information check out:
http://www.doshermanas.net, http://www.chessclub.com/help/DosHermanas, and
http://www.chessclub.com/news/1747

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Just another update on Backoff's Chess Blowout.

Section 1: Ustica and Bobes has taken 2 games each so far.

Section 2:Oliottavio and Masoud already has 4 wins and Bluefin and Strydor have all taken 2 games.

Section 3:Rabbitoid has 4 wins and Andreas Kaufmann, Hannelore, & JAGR each have 2 wins.

Section 4:Charly2 has a pair of wins

Section 5:NOMOEO & honcho have a pair of wins each.


Who will win the 6 month rook membership??? We'll soon find out.

Good luck to all.

I have been surprised to see that black wons more often then white.

I do not know the explanation, maybe some "bunnies" just like posting new games with white ?!




Statistics
White won 7184 (46.80 %)
Black won 7598 (49.50 %)
Draws 567 (3.69 %)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-1-2004_pg9_3

Just a quick update on Backoff's Chess Blowout.

Section 1: Ustica has taken 2 games so far.

Section 2:Oliottavio, Masoud, and Bluefin have all taken 2 games, with strydor have won 1.

Section 3:Rabbitoid and Andreas Kaufmann both have 2 wins each.

Section 4:Charly2 has a pair of wins

Section 5:I think everyone is on vaction, no completed games yet.


Who will win the 6 month rook membership??? We'll soon find out.

Good luck to all.

I have the same position.I know the IECG (www.iecg.org), a great organisation with more than 10000 members only chess,right? But why do so many people not use a chessserver? I don`t understand it.

as for me, I'm still active in the IECC, which is an email chess organisation, but have slipped to only 1-2 games since IYT, and then GT and BK became active. it's simply too comfortable to play on a server.

Recently I read a statistic that the bigger part of the correspondence chess players is still playing with postcards (more than 50 percent). A smaller part is playing with e-mail and fax and only the smallest part plays on a webserver. Can you believe this?
Does anybody know how is the situation in his own national correspondence chess federation?

I'm sure Ug did :)

Do you really think,that he has had fun? :)

He didn't seem to want the game to finish and I didn't want to spoil his fun.

Ug: nice ones ... queening pawns into knights just to give you opponent a fighting chance :)

Okay ughaibu, seems to be the record at this moment and I can try to establish a new one.:). Or anybody here with more than 76 moves?