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 Feature requestsDo you miss something on BrainKing.com and would you like to see it here? Post your request into this board! If there is a more specific board for the request, (i.e. game rule changes etc) then it should be posted and discussed on that specific board. For further information about Feature Requests, please visit this link on the Brainking.Info site : http://brainking.info/archives/20-About-feature-requests.html You are not allowed to post messages to this board. Minimum level of membership required for posting on this board is Brain Pawn. Mode: Everyone can post
23. January 2007, 18:44:02 Subject: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general Hey all, I think the game of Cheversi, as great a game it is, is pretty imbalanced (White wins 27%, Black 67% as for now: http://brainking.com/en/GameRules?tp=93) I would even say with reasonable play white is chanceless. I know rule changes suck after a game has been established, but the way it is, this imbalance takes a bit of the fun away from that great game. So I would suggest the rules to be somewhat changed, maybe along the lines of black being forced to make his first queen move on the rim of the board, but I assume even that might still not be enough, hard to say without lots of testing. So another suggestion I would have with games like Cheversi, that look like they could be a little off balance, would be to introduce them at first into some sort of sandbox, where they can be played and fine-tuned accordingly in unrated and uncounted games until some balance has been found. Just some thoughts that crossed my mind, maybe they all have been thought through already, but I didnt want to let them go unmentioned ;) Have fun all. 23. January 2007, 18:51:32 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general  dresali: Well I think those stats are a little misleading since they also count the games that had the "old" rules - in which black was almost guaranteed a win if they just left the queen for the last. Since the rule changed happened when the game was already released, even games ending now may have been started with the old rules in place. I'm not sure what the stats are now after the rule change (not sure if Fencer can just get those stats for us) - my guess it is probable closer to 40/60 - with black still having an advantage even when using the queen first - but now has a little more work to get the win. (but that is just a guess) 23. January 2007, 18:56:42 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general  dresali: As you just beat me i agree  But in all seriousness, its true in what you say. Once a player has got semi-used to playing it, the worst Black should ever do is ret a draw, but a win should be the outcome, no matter how good a player White is. Like you i think the game is great, but as in other games here on Brainking they can be modified. Apart from the ideas you have mentioned, how about a Dark version, where all opponents pieces, squares and score are blocked to the opponent. In other words no player would no how the other is doing OR what pieces they have used just what squares have a piece placed on it. 23. January 2007, 18:59:49 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general  MadMonkey: Two days ago I would have agreed, but after being beaten as black by oliottavio, I say that you need to play better than "reasonably" to win against a top-class opponent. 23. January 2007, 19:43:00 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general  dresali: I like the idea of a sandbox or a trial status for games. For the first week or two nobody could create rated games. That way, some flaws would naturally arise while no harm was done and they could still easilly be corrected. And it would allow us to try the games and learn how to play them before falling for stupid mistakes or such. Especially, since these days one must learn how to play the game before the rules are posted, right Fencer?  23. January 2007, 19:48:03 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general pauloaguia: I don't mind playing the first games being rated - if there is a flaw, it will most likely affect both players. Best thing to do is if players are worried about new games having flaws or bugs is to simply play only unrated/uncounted game themselves. 24. January 2007, 05:14:14 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general BIG BAD WOLF: How about a new game variant known as Dice Cheversi? Where you have to roll which piece to move out next? 24. January 2007, 08:30:58 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general danheg: I think the problem with Cheversi is that having the last move is quite a big advantage. That doesn't go away with rolling a dice, while it gives the player moving first a chance, odds still favour the person moving last. Swap rules have also been proposed, but that won't work either. Swap rules are there to level out the advantage of moving first. I think Cheversi ought to be played in such a way that both players move simultaneously. Obviously, this requires rules to handle the situation where both players want to move to the same spot (i.e. Both pieces are not placed and out of the game (possibly with the spot turning into a black hole); or both pieces sharing the same spot; or the highest piece wins or the winner of a coin flip gets to place his/her piece (and the other out)). 24. January 2007, 14:24:05 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general Modified by dresali (24. January 2007, 15:09:20) AbigailII: Well a swap rule would work as well i guess: White makes a move, Black makes a move, White decides if to swap, the game continues normally after the potential swap. This would perfectly balance the game, as long as there is a combination of first moves at all, that gives Black no advantage. So basically the question is probably, whether 'White King to the center, Black Queen to the corner' still leaves Black with an advantage, which it probably/hopefully doesnt. .. interesting stuff ;) The nice thing about this solution would be, there were no ugly restrictions to any moves, just the glitch of the swap. Thinking of it, this might be the most aesthetic solution ;) 24. January 2007, 16:49:07 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general dresali: The swap rule should be done after Black's 2nd turn. 24. January 2007, 22:08:53 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general dresali: Sorry, but I don't buy that (the swap rule). Take for instance the following game: On a board with 4 squares, white and black put a marker on a square on each turn. The first person that cannot place a marker loses the game. Obviously, going last is a huge advantage. How's a swap rule going to solve the imbalance? 24. January 2007, 15:24:25 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general Modified by dresali (24. January 2007, 15:25:31) AbigailII: And concerning the simultaneous moving: Somehow I dislike that idea cause it introduces an element of luck, since it wouldnt be a game of perfect information anymore: In a given situation, there is always a best move. But the best move could lead to an inferiour position, if the opponent luckily chooses a move that isnt his best move, but 'refutes' my best move. 24. January 2007, 22:04:07 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general dresali: If it refutes your best move, how couldn't it be your opponents best move? IMO, you still have perfect information. You know all the pieces your opponent still has in his hand, and you know all the moves he can play. Sure, you won't know what his next move will be, but then, you neither know with go or with chess, do you? 24. January 2007, 22:47:28 Subject: Re: Cheversi imbalance and new games in general AbigailII: I think we're getting slightly off topic, so allow myself to move this discussion to http://brainking.com/en/Board?bc=6 |
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