Bernice: Definitely wouldn't go well with conservative churches but liberal churches would probably embrace it.

Artful Dodger:
> Libs always run things into the ground. Their philosophy is wrong.
> Republicans loose out when they violate their principles of low spending, limited
> government, and deference to the states.

Historically, it was always Republicans who lead massive increases in the deficit and national public debt, usually by giving tax cuts away while increasing massively on defense spending. We can look at the Regan and both Bush administrations for that.

Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Bill Clinton finished his term in office with the first surplus since WW II. Barack Obama is seeing a massive increase in the deficit, mostly due to the bailout for the banks (which in fairness was George W. Bush's last act as president, and was carried over into the new administration). That ill-fated healthcare plan is going to cost a lot, and the only way to take care of that is to take away the tax cuts that the Bush administration gave to the rich.

In reality, both political parties are full of "brilliant" and "expensive" ideas. I see Democrats and Republicans as two sides of the same coin. Both parties represent the interests of monopolies and the corporate elite. The difference being mostly on who they represent. However, deep at heart both parties exist to protect the interests of mega-capitalists and the American corporate elite.

In that sense, to say that the Democrats are socialists is like saying that the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China is capitalist. The US democrats don't even come close to Europe's Social Democrat parties.

Pedro Martínez: looking at the definition in Wikipedia, you nailed that

Artful Dodger: I have always found it interesting that North American liberals are actually not liberals, and on the contrary, they are socialists.

Bernice: Really? For the first time in such a long time? Interesting… hung Parliament is quite common here. As far I can see, the predictions say that Liberals should take the PM seat though… so it seems you're going to have your favorite politician there…

Bad news for australia.....HUNG Parliament

finals wont be known for a couple days, but looks pretty certain.....first time since ww1....

Jim Dandy: In the end regardless of who and why .."she did this.. he did that"... a line needs to be drawn. They've been working 18 months to get these talks up.

Artful Dodger: it will be interesting to see how the australian public take to a self confessed atheist...Joolya and she hates kids ROFLMBO....AND she is shacked up with her guy, so when she goes into Parliament house to live she will be living in sin...there will be a lot of firsts if she takes power (voted in)....she refused to go into parliament house until she was voted in by the australian people. (her words)...times they are a changing....One thing is for sure it wouldnt go down too well in "churchy" USA.

Bernice: Yeah, I still am confused by your political terms. Wonder why they mean such different things? Here small government and fiscal conservatives are the Conservative party. They typicaly oppose abortion and entitlements. Libs the opposite. Sometimes the lines are blurred which is what many Repubs did during the Bush admin. For example, bush was a big spender. Not the way of the Conservative party.

Pedro Martínez: yes but the 2 libs are vastly different I think LOL....but must admit to knowing nothing of american politics except there are a lot of idiots same as here....both in Govt and out of Govt.

LOL, I like this conversation. Libs vs. Libs.

Libs always run things into the ground. Their philosophy is wrong. Republicans loose out when they violate their principles of low spending, limited government, and deference to the states.

Artful Dodger: oh well by the end of the day will tell us if we have our first elected PM in Julia Gillard, or Joolya as she has been nic'd or the Libs return to power.

Bernice: that's a bit of a problem here too. People don't really trust the Repubs and in fact, they have less trust for them than they do the Dems. But the liberal spending and runaway govt isn't flying with the majority. Obama is still strong but losing ground. AND his fellow Dems are all in trouble. It's a tough year to be a Dem.

Pedro Martínez: yes me too sadly

Bernice: I hear what you're saying, but you'd have to torture me to make me vote for the left… We also have a moronic leader of the strongest right-wing party here, but getting them elected was still better than the other option… :)

Pedro Martínez: I have to agree with you but Brer Rabbit (Tony Abbot) isn't the most charismatic/likeable person either ROFL

Bernice: Liberals…

Election day here today....what a farce.....
do you vote for the party that was voted out 2 1/2 yrs ago, but I might add left millions in the coffers to enable us to get through the recession virtually unscathed and whose leader is Tony ABbot...OR, do you vote for the current party, Labour, who has our first woman as a leader but her predecesor Kevin Rudd, who has spent all the money and gotten us into debt....people think they are great because they got a "free" handout of a couple thousand dollars (which sent the country nearly broke) or do you vote for the Liberals whose leader is an idiot....John Howard resigned unfortunately :(
We have preferential voting here which means you have to be careful whom you vote for as their preferences could be with someone you don't like :(
such a cunundrum (sp)

(V):

Jim Dandy: ...??? At the Balfour declaration?? *ducks*

(V): Don't get me started

Artful Dodger: You forgot to pay for the rich folks tax cut. They must be surely broke by now... NOT!!!

Jim Dandy: .. It doesn't mean the Israelis have the right to take land not theirs. I can understand defence, but I wish the UN could be used to deal with any Palestinian attacks rather than the Israeli army. I also wish all the UN resolutions made against Israel would have been enforced.. again to introduce a UN force. Also that the UN resolutions the USA 'vetoed' were not.

Our country is officially annoyed with Israel, over their breaking a promise NOT to use fake British passports again to allow them to enter another country in order to assasinate people.

Every year, Americans for Tax Reform calculates Cost of Government Day — exactly how many days of the year Americans work to pay the total cost of government. This includes all government spending by federal, state, and local government. It also includes the costs forced into every product and service we buy in the private sector by state and federal regulations. Some regulations are silly and destructive. Others are important and useful. But none are free.

In 2008, Americans worked 197 days, until July 16 — in other words, more than half the year — to pay for the total cost of government. As a result of the bailouts, stimulus, and increased discretionary spending in the federal budget and new taxes for health care, Americans this year have worked until August 19, fully 231 days.

(V): "The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight."

-Golda Meir

Artful Dodger: Our fear regarding the present condition was that there might be a double dip.

Btw did you hear how Boeing risked all in developing the 747. Spent everything and upto the waist in debt. Private enterprises in the USA spent over a billion just to get to the wind tunnel stage of testing a supersonic jet liner design.

.. yet the UK and French government completed Concorde for the same money. The project went over budget.. but the plane was a beauty. No-one can even match it today, at the time it'd even outrun the RAF's interceptors.

Jim Dandy: Not quite right.. it needs to include also when they don't fear for their children and feel their children have a future.

Jim Dandy:

(V): "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us"

-Golda Meir

Jim Dandy: Well I hope and pray you are right.

Jim Dandy: It's not going to be an instant thing, there will be hiccups.. but if the folk aiming towards sorting it keep going...

Blair lied about Iraq but he organised peace in Northern Ireland.

(V): I wish it was

Artful Dodger: That's what happens when part of the school curriculum is to teach to hate Jews.It is ingrained in them from a very early age

Artful Dodger: Absolute rubbish.

Jim Dandy: The terrorists full stop need Israel ... The IRA needed the Loyalists and the Loyalists needed the IRA. But in the end the people wanted peace, the cost of that war was just sickening the people.

Jim Dandy: They will find other ways to recruit. And peace will never be fully realized. History tells us that. Any peace reached will be short lived. That's because for some Arabs, the only tolerable Israel is when they are pushed into the sea.

(V): Hamas needs Israel as a recruitmenr tool, peace will make them melt away like the wicked witch of the west

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OM-xQ5vOso

Jim Dandy: If they can sort out a peace deal in Northern Ireland with all the various sides involved in that mess then there is a chance. N' Hamas won't be in power forever.

(V): And that is why Hamas will find every reason not to reach an agreement

The US is preparing to release a statement establishing details for direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, the BBC has learned.

Both the US government and other international Quartet members have been working towards a formula to persuade both sides to begin negotiations, after several months of indirect talks.

US special envoy George Mitchell has tried to establish enough trust to begin direct talks - with the ultimate aim of two states existing side by side in peace.

If they do.. less power to the recruiters of terrorists.

There will have to be compromises and ground given by both sides if a new round of peace talks is to succeed where many previous attempts have failed.

Just as in Northern Ireland

N' on the news just now.. The last US combat troops are leaving Iraq two weeks earlier than Pres Obama aimed for.

Jim Dandy:

Artful Dodger: I will quote you on this one

Jim Dandy: Dude, I've been off the edge for a long, long time now. Haven't you noticed?

Artful Dodger: Did Republican policy just send you off the edge?