can someone tell me if this is allowed here?
my opponant has just told me he's using one and i find this annoying!!
i play against people not a program...
<disgruntled Tulip>

Tulip: No it's not. He risks being banned and his rating removed (User Agreement).

ive found in the past.. that its a waste of time reporting this..

Tulip, if you send the game ID to Fencer he can advise further.

harley: Hmmmm?..Fencer just answered me and says its ok???
im amazed!. and will tone down how many games i play here!...in fact after that i might not bother anymore ;(

Oh, oops Sorry!

Actually, what kind of program can help in a dice-based game?
The paragraph in the UA will be improved anyway.

sorry Fencer but that stinks!

Fencer: I agree with Tulip,I dont think you should be able to use programs to play here,thats why I play on these site and dont buy a chess/backgammon game!!

Can I ask which game it is? Dice games bring to mind backgammon, where no programme would help!

Tulip: b>Tulip:There has been a bit of confusion on whether someone has figured a system in Ponds too, but it was admitted Friday that it wasn't true. There's a lot of TALK about such things. It would be impossible to have any kind of aide in any dice game.

There is a site on the Internet for choosing the right move in Backgammon based on the odds of a particular number being rolled by your opponent. But that's just an odds thing and most people experienced in any dice game know the possibilities of each roll just by experience.

harley: No a program that is trained to play the dice in the best fashion in backgammom would help... But it spoils the fun of playing the game.

harley: thats not true programmes if your not good CAN and DO help,also what does our ranking mean if using said programmes is allowed???

All a computer could tell you is:

There are two ways to make the three and eleven.
There are three ways to make the four and ten.
There are four ways to make the five and nine.
There are five ways to make the six and eight.
There are six ways to make the seven.

Your better players know this from experience and thus have the higher scores.

ClayNashvilleTn: so,where does that put mr rubbish player useing a computer programme to make moves,exactly????????

philip: From what I read he gets a neural net program that learns by playing against itself.

And yes, I did post more info, but I thought best not to in the end.

philip & Jules, I'll have to take your word for that, I've never seen a backgammon programme running. Maybe I'm missing something.

philip:If he has one, it's because he failed 9th grade Math. You dont need one. Your better players dont use them. They know the odds from books, the internet, or just common knowledge. They use the odds in making their moves. Copy what I just sent you and use it. That isn't cheating. it's knowing the odds of an opponent landing on you if you move your piece in any location on the board.

I don't understand, why does anyone want to use a programe? Surely it takes all of the fun out of playing? If you win its not even your victory! Besides winning shouldn't be the most important thing when playing a game, in my opinion, it should be about enjoying the game! Its not life or death, its just a bit of fun! Well thats what I think anyway! :o)

Lamby: i couldnt agree more - well said

Jules: but WHAT do our rankings mean,on here if people are using programmes??..what??

Lamby: If they are using something to aide them in any dice game, I know where they can get some Snake Oil that cures every disease known to man. Send me $50.00 and I will send it to you.

Las Vegas wouldn't exist if that was true.

philip: Not as much if you are using a program if nothing at all really as the person cheating has not done the work. But.. on the other hand if you beat someone who is cheating. :)

Lets look at what we know for fact.

There are no useful programs that can help in any dice game.

Fencer advised you to not to worry about it because he knows that for a fact.

Don't get upset over some clown claiming he has one because he doesn't.

If he does he probably needs one to get out of bed too.

This is a non issue.

ClayNashvilleTn: Clay there are Powerful programs that can defeat the top Backgammon players out there... This is a fact.

They are not free mind you :)

Clay: Using a REAL good backgammon program can help a lot, especially not so experienced players. Like they will tell you what's the best move when you roll 64 as your opening roll...

how can these programes simulate the roll dice. I mean, how do they know my roll dice?

Pedro Martínez: Not since I told them the odds. It is an odds game! That same computer would also tell an inexperienced person how to roll craps. The trick is to learn the odds and learn the game. The guy with the computer will never learn, "IF" he indeed has one.

Andre Faria:
They can predict the future.....
That's why it is cheating

ClayNashvilleTn: We are not talking about Craps, we are talking about Backgammon.

Jules: They both are all about the roll of the dice. In that essence they are the same.

ClayNashvilleTn: Backgammon is also about position building blocks and many other things, whether it's better to move the back counters, to leave them them there, whether to make a run, etc.

Jules: all based on the odds of what your opponent "MIGHT" roll on his next turn. All good players figure that in their head Jules.

It is a way to get your money. I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

OK, spill the beans, I'll play him and beat him like a drum? hehehehehe well maybe, I am still learning.

People using programs to cheat usually don't tell on themselves, so maybe there is another reason he told you he using a program. Anyone using a program learns little about playing, but for some people winning is more important than anything else. I've played chess with people I know were using programs for making moves. They aren't weren't smarter after playing with programs than they were before they started, so as far as I am concerned I'm not the one who loses something.

Why would he tell you he was cheating if he was really cheating?

Hey even I can win backgammon against a computer! Ive played a few times against a computer & it was soooooooo easy it was boring!

ClayNashvilleTn: No, because position can demand that you ignore what he might roll. Only maybe in 6 or 7 turns may I be interested and only if he drops a free one that I can knock off.

ClayNashvilleTn: I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

You guess wrong.............
One of the world's best Backgammon players think that: "I have no doubt that GNU Backgammon 2-ply would show a positive result if given enough time vs. any human player in match play."
--Neil Kazaross

From http://www.gnubg.org

I love my crow well done. Try to get the middle done as well. I also ask that you remove all feathers first.

I just went on Google and found several programs. I honestly didn't think they would help. You guys need to copy and paste this confession in a private file for later use.

"I WAS WRONG THIS ONE TIME"

ClayNashvilleTn: Hum... I think you must apologize... LOL

Fencer you need to recant your answer to TULIP.
Dang I can't be the only one looking bad in this exchange.

Andre Faria: Andre Faria:You are exactly right. I was speaking when I should have been listening. I started playing in August and thought I had it all figured out.

In all honesty I do apologize to everyone.

ClayNashvilleTn: :)

I think I must hold the record for apologies. I wish all these months I had kept count. I bet I could be in the McGinnis world record book by now!

OH, well a little humbling never hurt anyone. It keeps us grounded.

ClayNashvilleTn: Oh, there's plenty of odds to the dice, but there's lots more to Backgammon than that. If you don't see that, you'll not advance to the top of the list any time soon. I'm a Craps player from way back, and what I know about odds has helped me make a decision on a move from time to time, but the important things about Backgammon and what seperate it from a game of pure chance such as Craps, that Jules was talking about will determine who's the better player over the long run. Anybody can get lucky at rolling the dice, but in Craps it only matters for each game or roll depending on how you're betting. In Backgammon there's planning involved and sometimes one's plans change because of good or bad fortune during the game. In Craps, the important thing is to get lucky and proper money management. There's no planning gamewise, unless you call taking odds on the shooter's point planning, that is. :)

Now, as far as a program helping one play Backgammon, what is so hard to understand about that? If you play just one move ahead without thinking further into the game, you're not going to do well when you play me. I'm sure a computer could be designed to pretend every roll possible for a few turns and then use some sort of decision table to pick the best course of action considering the roll that it has on the turn at that moment. That's what I'd do.<>>>>

AS I'm typing this I see that you've done some research on it. Would you like some mashed potatoes with that crow? I hate when that happens to me, but it helps me learn things. :)

Walter Montego:Yes, please, gravy on those potatoes.

I just fell into the trap of not considering what others were saying and being so dang sure I was correct. It will be a while before I make that mistake again. The one thing I have learned on BK is, there are a lot of intelligent people on here that deserve and need to be listened to.

I have just never considered cheating and assumed that no one else would either. I love learning the games and improving and developing new skills. What you, Jules and Pedro said makes a lot of sense. I was JUST thinking of the DICE ODDS. My Bad.

You have my deepest respect, Clay. I consider the ability to admit one's mistake one of the greatest characteristics of a human being.

Pedro Martínez: Thanks Pedro, my Dad told me, "son, you do not have to always be right, you just need to always want to be right".

For a long time I didnt fully understand that statement. Then it dawned on me .........Clay listen and learn from others so you can be right.

A closed mind is a horrible thing to have.

I still dont understand how a programme could beat anyone at backgammon , unless it had some knowledge on possible rolls that would appear in a certain sequence , i have tried to work out these move patterns over a long period of time now and i cant find a pattern as to the rolls , only the ones that will roll you a double six ect when thats the only possible non move for you lol