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4. Mars 2010, 23:38:36
The Col 
Sujet: Re:
Tuesday:Although "fear" has been overused as a tool in recent years, it's nothing new.The LBJ daisy ad is thought by many to have won him the election back in the 60's

4. Mars 2010, 23:41:39
The Col 
Sujet: Re:
Tuesday: Yes,I was going to give the utube link, but I didn't think it was allowed

5. Mars 2010, 06:34:04
Ferris Bueller 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Jim Dandy:  I doubt that won LBJ the election solely, but it may have contributed to the landslide.  Barry Goldwater, his Republican opponent, advocated using nukes on Vietnam.  So, Johnson's people used the "Daisy" ad to hang the "armegedon" tag on Goldwater.

5. Mars 2010, 08:20:32
The Col 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Ferris Bueller: I'd heard it was a very very effective ad,but no,saying it won him the election was probably an overstatement.The fact it is still a popular refrence does say something though in regards to it's impact on political advertising

5. Mars 2010, 08:28:50
The Col 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Artful Dodger: WIKIPEDIA:

"The term ['socialized medicine'] was popularized by a public relations firm working for the American Medical Association in 1947 to disparage President Truman's proposal for a national health care system. It was a label, at the dawn of the cold war, meant to suggest that anybody advocating universal access to health care must be a communist. And the phrase has retained its political power for six decades."

5. Mars 2010, 09:27:57
Ferris Bueller 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Jim Dandy:  The "Socialist" tag was also used as an attack on FDR for Social Security & LBJ for his support of Medicare. 

5. Mars 2010, 20:02:18
The Col 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Artful Dodger: The whole concept of group insurance uses the same "socialist" concept that is being used as the boogyman.The big insurance companies are laughing at the people doing their bidding so that they can post record profits, the jokes on the people

5. Mars 2010, 20:46:47
Ferris Bueller 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Jim Dandy:   I frankly don't care if its "Socialism" or not.  Health reform is the right thing to do to provide proper safety nets for our citizens today & stop the bleeding of spiraling HC cost.  If that is "Socialism", I guess happy to associate with it.  SS was the right thing to do.  Only people with extreme Libertarian views want to abandon SS today.  Being called a Socialist is not going to change my views, but, it does for a lot of people in this country.

5. Mars 2010, 22:46:56
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Being called a Socialist is not going to change my views, but, it does for a lot of people in this country.
Ferris Bueller: But that was only because of the cold war and the likes of MaCarthyism and "duck and cover"..

.. Guess the fact that the USA having enough WMD's to kill the world several times over if they launched just didn't register on the scare meter in the US....

Reagan got it after watching "The Day After".

5. Mars 2010, 23:46:45
Ferris Bueller 
Sujet: Re: Reagan got it after watching "The Day After".

(V):  & "Red Dawn".  LOL  Those obsessions did not end w/ the end of the Cold War. In the US, some people are scared of any gov't services for fear that it will lead to Soviet style Communism.  A lot of it is great theater put on by the right & insurance cos, like pro wrestling - especially those fake thugs at town hall meetings this summer & the "Tea Parties".  But, it does little to help political dialog.  I think real HC reform will come one day in this country once this facade is peeled away.


Just got one of those "push" telephone calls from the far right - trying to scare me about Obama's HC plan.  It would be hilarious if so many people didn't buy into that kind of crap.  I get to see the right & all its glory living in South Carolina, LOL.


Funny thing is, they are now laying off teachers & eliminating services to the Handicapped in full force in this state.  Parents are now having take care of those family members with severe mental retardation at home.  The average citizen is in an uproar, but they voted for Mark Sanford twice.  Aside from his little tryst in Argentina, he's tried to block all Federal Funds from comming into this state, mainly because he wanted to show up Obama.  Now, even Republicans here are in an Uproar.


6. Mars 2010, 16:16:12
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Reagan got it after watching "The Day After".
Ferris Bueller: Thing is... we have a Conservative party and they are all for our NHS, the current leader of the party praises what the NHS did for him and his family.

This right wing attitude of "SoCiAliSm is bad and anti American" is nuts. Using it to justify allowing harm, fraud and a crazy system with more knots in it than a 1000 foot long rope ladder is not democratic.

5. Mars 2010, 20:56:59
The Col 
Sujet: Re: The LBJ daisy ad
Artful Dodger: So you're basically saying,you don't mind being ripped of, as long as it's done by the private sector

5. Mars 2010, 22:43:38
Mort 
Sujet: Re: nd the majority of US citizens oppose socialism.
Artful Dodger: Which type?

And you do seem to be saying that you don't mind being ripped off by business. It's a crinimal offense over here!! Trading standards being as they are part of the consumer system. ;)

5. Mars 2010, 23:22:38
The Col 
Sujet: Re: So you're basically saying,you don't mind being ripped of, as long as it's done by the private sector
Artful Dodger: Dude, why does it always end up getting into personal jabs with you?

5. Mars 2010, 23:23:31
Pedro Martínez 
Sujet: Re: So you're basically saying,you don't mind being ripped of, as long as it's done by the private sector
Artful Dodger: Don't envy, old man. There is still the Third Age University for you to go too!

6. Mars 2010, 16:06:19
Mort 
Sujet: Re: And you do seem to be saying that you don't mind being ripped off by business.
Artful Dodger: My point was that there are those in business and in government who can and do rip joe public off. You hark on about government like no other organisation apart from government has corruption or abuse joe public.

I've seen government, business and charities who have been caught red handed with their hands in the coffers.

You point out that your current medical system is not right.. well then, it is the private businesses at the moment who are ripping the whole of the USA off. To say "we cannot use a government run system because it is socialist" is at best a loose use of the word socialist and IMHO a very strained stereotype of "better dead than red" old cold war rubbish.

6. Mars 2010, 19:21:28
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Artful Dodger: I'm sorry Art, but I like to balanced. The attitude you give off when sniping at Obama and anything not Republican or American Conservative is that everyone else has horns and your 'guys' have halo's and are at the right hand of the I AM.

That Obama and liberal minded people invented fraud....

.... Very old British records of army spending show kings in the past concerned over how each penny is spent, long before socialism (apart from some talk by some guy called Jesus and others of his ilk) was ever invented as an economic concept.

I guess the merchants back then liked profit!!

6. Mars 2010, 21:23:25
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Artful Dodger: I can back up from your posts that you hark on about government fraud than any other type, anyone can see that!! ;)

I can back up from your posts that you think a government based health system is akin to having your feet licked by sheep (an old toture system) .. yet I can also say that a government based system is more accountable to joe public than your current health companies are. Which is something you need in the USA.

I can also say that a recent case of a paramedic denying to resusitate (sp) a man in the UK because he was by opinion... thought to be too fat is a crime. In the USA I've heard people denied treatment over stupid reasons such as "you didn't tick a box".

I know our NHS is not perfect, but as always the option to have private healthcare from national companies is available to those who wish to pay for it. As I said national.. no county to county rubbish... state to state to those in the USA.

Greed is a human thing, one of the seven deadly sins ain't it ;)

6. Mars 2010, 23:00:54
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
modifié par Vikings (6. Mars 2010, 23:01:33)
(V): Name one American government system other than the military that is run efficiently

7. Mars 2010, 00:12:16
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Vikings: The FBI have pretty good record, NASA went to the moon. Your police works, taxes seem to be collected.

.. depends on what you classify as efficient. With respect in employment about 95% is efficient.

How are your bank's bonuses this year?

7. Mars 2010, 00:25:33
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
modifié par Vikings (7. Mars 2010, 00:26:45)
(V): well, lets answer these, shall we
The FBI, do you remember a thing called 9-11, the FBI and other law agencies refused to share information and I don't think I have to remind you what happened, real efficient
NASA, just this week they have scrapped the moon missions, but they are not scrapping the money that has been appropriated for it, now the head of NASA is in bed with the global warming bunkist.
police, well that is a local issue not a federal issue
taxes, funny how you seem to forget that many of the administration have evaded paying their taxes including the secretary of the Treasury, oh yea , have you ever tried reading a tax code

I am still waiting for a legitimate answer

7. Mars 2010, 00:28:59
Pedro Martínez 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Vikings: Let me add that the justice system is at the very bottom of the list of the ineffective U.S. “government-run” systems.

7. Mars 2010, 00:30:37
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Pedro Martínez: agreed, especially when it comes to federal judges

7. Mars 2010, 08:44:23
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Vikings: Why did the Bin Laden family leave the USA? How many cases of corporate manslaughter have been filed against USA companies.

Nasa didn't scrap the moon flights, Obama did to save money. The current planned system was a joke and pre dates the current admin, they stopped a farce. Certain drug companies have issued false claims and made billions from drugs that don't work or unsafe.. how, by bombarding the government depts with two much information or supressing facts.

.. That's a world wide issue and has in the USA alone led to a case of over 10,000 people suing the company over diabetes caused by a prescribed drug.

The tobacco companies knew pre 70's of the cancer risk due to tobacco smoking, etc. .. I've seen the files personally due to a job I did relating to a UK class action.

Taxes, everyone tries to evade that. How many billions in off shore accounts.

1000's of UK building companies got caught fixing prices for projects all around the UK. The ripped off clients, were public, private and charities.

I hear Medicare and aid in the USA are bankrupt due to charges made by private hospitals and doc's that are way over the top. Is there any truth in this?

As for social networks.. Don't really use facebook and the likes!!

And how much (you did not answer) are your bank bonuses this year. I hear all the banks are crying "if we don't pay out billions in bonuses the eggheads will leave and join other companies."

... Madoff.

7. Mars 2010, 10:11:21
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
(V): Uhm, I.m still waiting for that well run government system, instead of you changing the point

7. Mars 2010, 16:51:37
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
modifié par Mort (7. Mars 2010, 16:56:18)
Vikings: I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you consider efficient, I'm still waiting for you to report on your bank's and their bonuses.

But hey... Republicans here seem to be above such honesty and perspective. Hence my comparison of private business and government, both run by humans. as I don't know your personal view on what is considered well run!

btw.. those prisoners in the USA jails who make for the USA military such things as body armour and battle helmets.... how is the equipment holding up?

From a British point of view I can see how you guys from the USA might have problems with perspectivity and relativity, after all... during the Northern ireland war (involving terrorists) many private people in the USA gave money which ended up paying for weapons that killed civilians over here as well as soldiers and police.

After 9/11, right wingers moaned about the French, who supplied info on another terrorist attack attempt which with the help of the Canadians stopped said attempt. Just because they did not agree with Bush.

7. Mars 2010, 00:31:47
Vikings 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
(V): I also noticed how you steered away from social network systems

7. Mars 2010, 08:28:41
Mort 
Sujet: Re: Ok, so without your usual nonsense when challenged, how about you make your best case to support the above assertion?
Artful Dodger: Art.... are you trying to tell me you like government health after all? Have you been in denial????

As for you lies, etc about various parties and their members. No side is clean and due to that. No side can try and claim the moral high ground.

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