(V): Yeah, what Rod said.

(V): Depends on where you live!
There's federal income taxes
Some states have income taxes (I live in a state that doesn't)

Some states have sales taxes (I live in a state that doesn't)

Then of course there are "Property Taxes" (Mostly to towns/cities ? But I rent, so I don't know how it goes, honestly. Maybe some goes to the State?)

And then also there is registering your car - some of that goes to state, some to town/city.

And of course any local fines, etc, which of course is quite avoidable.

But again. The thing AD is talking about with that stuff about 49% has to deal ONLY with the Federal Income taxes.

It's ridiculous that anyone can say the "rich" don't pay their fair share, when half the country pays NO federal income taxes

Artful Dodger: *** sigh *** "the governments"

I asked a point of reference. Us UK people can get confused by the myriad of tax systems in the USA.


... How many different taxes at any level may a person of working age pay in the USA .. as an average?

You have Federal Income tax, state payroll tax?? Now.. this is want to know. straight info on HOW MANY fingers are there in the pie.

(V): The reason it's mentioned is due to the liberal claim that the "rich" don't pay their fair share of income taxes. We know they pay more taxes as they buy more things and more expensive things at that. But the comparison being offered has to do with federal income taxes. On that we know it's a fact that nearly 50% do not pay federal income taxes. So clearly there is a problem with the "fair share" as it applies to the bottom 50%. They contribute nothing but suck off the governments tit endlessly.

Bwild: http://www.npr.org/2012/04/01/149462376/did-jesus-exist-a-historian-makes-his-case

just offering as an interesting read

I was watching some scholars on the Bible from a UK university.. on the meaning of John 3:16

Common usage is not as originally written. ... Translation problems.

Iamon lyme: These guys I like to watch on youtube.. They are funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g1KhvF9nJg

No-one has been able to call them up and prove to their level of 'proof' that God, as written in the Bible .. just with Jesus, does/did exist.As written.

So much stuff was destroyed.. The Vatican has so much hidden...

Bwild: Uber said he didn't want to read any books by Christian scholars. If he includes truly impartial scholars along with them, then I'm not surprised he has found no evidence to support what is written about people and events chronicled in the Bible.

I'm not telling you what sources you should or shouldn't look at, but relying on information from people who have already made up their minds is what it is. It is selective ignorance... selectively ignoring anything that contradicts a predermined conclusion.

Artful Dodger: Not the same as paying no tax.. just one specific tax out of how many? Sorry but we have a straight forward system, one income tax system. Not one from the gov and another going to the local 'state'/county. Local level taxes are collected through 'council tax' (ie property rates) and any such system used to generate extra revenue.. car parking fines as an example.

mckinley: [ I've hung out with riff raff. Doesn't mean I did what they did ;) They are more interesting. ]

I've worked around people who make riff raff look very appealing. Some of them were fresh out of prison and acted like they couldn't wait to go back... apparently doing what it takes to maintain their freedom was too much to ask of them.

There are enough riff raff here for you to be entertained, and it's definitely safer hanging out with them here.

Bwild: I think it really depends on what constitutes evidence in your mind. That and compelling arguments for the case of the historical Jesus (not to mention His claims to being God)

Iamon lyme: so there are no real facts...no true evidence.

Bible thumpers was not directed at you personally.
As I stated before...it's not up to the atheist to provide the proof.
I believe we have reached a conclusion in this debate.

Vikings: This is actually very easy to explain. There are two Barack Obamas, one is good and the other is evil. They are identical twins, born at the same time and given the same name. One was born in Hawaii and other in Kenya (don't ask me how that happened, I don't know)

You're right about it being the qoute of the century... I didn't have a clue as to who said that until I came to the end of the quote. Seeing Barack Obamas name was like seeing the punchline to a joke.

Bwild: [ so please...just 1 FACT that Proves Jesus of Nazareth truley existed. I would like to see it,because I've spent many years off and on..(one whole year exclusively) trying to find just ONE fact. ]

If you've put in that much time and effort and found nothing then for you the issue should be settled, shouldn't it? I think it's interesting that critics can make broad sweeping statements with nothing to back it up, but then insist I do the research and collect the information they are unable to find.

I asked Uber not to insult my intelligence by asking me where evidence can be found, because he has the same access to information as I do. He asked anyway, and so have you. As for your comments on hypocrisy and asking not to be belittled, do you think I don't know what you meant by "Bible thumpers"?

Articles: U.S. Government Celebrates Terrorist Who Craved to Nuke the U.S. http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/09/us_government_celebrates_terrorist_who_craved_to_nuke_the_us.html#.UFnRwIwmC4w.twitter

Vikings: I wonder if they played that quote on MSNBC?

(V): It's bout 49% that don't pay Federal taxes.

Iamon lyme: I hate to break the news to them but there's nobody out there.

Iamon lyme: "It's been convenient to say in the absence of any evidence that something didn't happen or a place didn't exist, until that place or some recorded history is found. And then after evidence is found, ignoring it is what it is... willful ignorance."


but...where is this "evidence"? thats really the big issue.
talking in circles..making jokes..changing the subject...still doesnt provide ACTUAL evidence.
so please...just 1 FACT that Proves Jesus of Nazareth truley existed. I would like to see it,because I've spent many years off and on..(one whole year exclusively) trying to find just ONE fact.
Can you provide this ONE fact,without belittling?

This is too good.. Be sure to check out where the "quote" came from
The Quote of the Decade:
"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America 's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America 's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, "the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006

Iamon lyme: Not one tax dollar.. a myth it's paid for by government money.

Just like that 47% of Americans pay no income tax, as Mitt Romney did state a few days back when stating he has no intent of appealing to them.

... but they do pay.."61% of those who pay no federal income tax do pay payroll tax at 15.3%.

Another 22% of the non-income tax-payers are elderly, according to the Ezra Klein article. If that is correct, 83% of those who do not pay income tax don't really fit Mr Romney's characterisation, except in so far as his argument is that people who don't pay income tax aren't impressed by promises of income tax cuts."

Artful Dodger: LOL Yeah, no kidding! Someone really did a bang up job of getting the funding (tax dollars?) for building radio dishes and installing monitoring equipment and paying salaries to people to monitor the monitoring equipment and etc etc and computer experts and etc etc and Joe the janitor/handyman/toilet unplugger/ window washer and etc etc... Hey, come on, it takes money to run ANY kind of operation!

Where was I? Oh yeah, and all of this for the sake of maybe picking up intelligently designed (what, intelligent design?) signals from an alien race some scientists are hoping exists. So you see, even hope costs money. You didn't really think all that hope and change crap was going to save you any money, did you? Foolish peons! Money doesn't just grow on trees ya know.

If we want to find those aliens, we had better darn well be ready to spend the money for it. We can't assume the aliens will come to us... who do we think we are, anyway? If we are going to find the aliens, any aliens, even the stupid and technologically primitive ones, then we might have to be the ones who go looking for them.

So as you can see, this has been money well spent.

Iamon lyme: I agree. This topic has been discussed before. The atheist argument fails on so many levels. Nothing said will make any difference. So, ok Jesus is a myth. Next topic please. How about SETI? Or Sasquatch ? Lochness?

Artful Dodger: [ read this book then make your points... ]

There's load of evidence verifying Old Testament people and events as well. Documentation in the form of clay tablets and cylinders recording the local history of peoples and events count as documentation, as well as corroborating documentation (verification) found in nearby cultures and localities. Evidence of cities previously thought nonexistent have been unearthed within the last few years... more and more evidence in various forms are unearthed as time goes on.

It's been convenient to say in the absence of any evidence that something didn't happen or a place didn't exist, until that place or some recorded history is found. And then after evidence is found, ignoring it is what it is... willful ignorance.

By the way, the word "ignorant" is another one of those magic words liberals love to toss out... it's intended to have the same effect as words like "birther" or "conspiracy nut". Personally, I like the term "double standard"... that pretty much says it all.

I've been through a debating cycle at least twice within that last 10 years for this particular topic, and for evolution as well. Both cycles lasted for months, during which time I did a lot of research and accumulated loads of information. I don't have that information at my fingertips now, and I certainly don't have the time or interest (or desire) to repeat another cycle. Life is too short to spend trying to convince someone of something they don't want to know.

Artful Dodger:

> read this book then make your points. As it is, you speak out of ignorance. http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testament-Documents-Reliable/dp/0802822193

I am not asking for a book written by a Christian scholar.

'Frederick Fyvie Bruce (12 October 1910 – 11 September 1990) was a Biblical scholar and one of the founders of the modern evangelical understanding of the Bible. His first book, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (1943), was voted by the American evangelical periodical Christianity Today in 2006 as one of the top 50 books "which had shaped evangelicals".'

I am asking for a direct literary source contemporary to Jesus that states unequivocally that he existed. There is no such source. The earliest mention outside the New testament is in a brief paragraph in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, and that as written in 93-94 AD. Many scholars disagree on the interpretation of a brief paragraph written by a rather obscure Jewish scholar in the Roman empire.

The Gospels themselves are based on one, possibly two documents written at around 75 AD. That leaves us with no contemporary sources.

Was Jesus a historical figure? Most scholars think that Jesus did exist and see sources as Josephus and Tacitus as either brief mentions of the historical Jesus, or reflections of events that those historians heard among early Christians. However, the mythology around Jesus (the virgin birth, the miracles, etc.) are considered to be non-historical (in other words, they have no concrete historical proof of their having occurred.)

Do we really believe that a man would do all those miracles and go unnoticed by all the Roman and Greek historians of the era? If somebody did all those miracles, that person would not have gone unnoticed, specially when those miracles gave rise to the dominant religion in the Roman empire. Matthew clearly states that Jesus was followed by "multitudes", and yet nobody in the Roman world noticed him enough to write anything of him? Romans noted inconsequential people, but ignored Jesus in spite of his miracles?

Übergeek 바둑이: Actually that's not true and I was being silly. The New Testament documents are historically reliable. FF Bruce is a leading authority on the New Testament documents and he's not alone in his assessment that they are a reliable source for eye witness accounts of the life of Jesus. There is more documented evidence for the existence of Jesus as a historical figure than there is evidence for many other historical figures. It's not that the evidence isn't there; you just reject everything that's offered.

Artful Dodger:

> duh! He lives in my heart!

Exactly! The ONLY way one can see Jesus as a historical figure is if one has faith. Without faith the New Testament could never be considered a historical document. It is faith that makes people see the New Testament as a document that reflects true historical events. Without faith other historical sources would fail to corroborate any events described there.

Übergeek 바둑이: read this book then make your points. As it is, you speak out of ignorance. http://www.amazon.com/The-New-Testament-Documents-Reliable/dp/0802822193

Übergeek 바둑이: duh! He lives in my heart!

Iamon lyme:

> LOL (selective ignorance?) There is an abundance of historical documentation to prove otherwise. And please don't insult my intelligence by asking where... you have the same access to information as I do.

Can you please supply such documentation or links to it? Is there documentation proving the existence of Jesus outside the New Testament? Are there any Roman or Greek (or other) sources contemporary to the life of Jesus that corroborate his existence? Note that I mean contemporary and not 200 years later. If they existed, I would be the first to put them here.

Davi Calls Out P.C. Hollywood for Abandoning Free Speech http://shar.es/uku3v via @sharethis

Iamon lyme: I'm effectively tired. Those little kiddies wear me out!

Talking straight politics is depressing. I'll come back after the heat dies down and people here start getting goofy again. I give you know who about 1/2 day to give me a reason to jump back in... shouldn't take much longer than that.

(Go ahead, make my day!)

Artful Dodger: Right now I'm "effectively" retired, but I prefer to say that I'm unemployed. Depending on the outcome of the presidential election, I'll know whether or not to call myself retired or unemployed.

I think the same is true with other people. Some doctors have already retired sooner than they had planned, thanks to the added headaches of Obamacare... and some people who were thinking of going into medicine are having second thoughts. Remember reading about the so called "brain drain" during the middle of the last century? Brains were "draining" out of Europe and finding their way to the US. We may be facing our own brain drain soon... either going overseas, or essentially being redirected and absorbed (in other words, effectively lost) in our own economy.

Artful Dodger: I've heard the equivalent of $5 US per gallon is the norm in Europe. And our unemployment norm appears to be approaching or has already reached Europe's normal (average) percentage. Depending on how things go in the next few years, unemployment here may hover at 8 to 11 percent, if we can hold it there... I don't think it will be coming down anytime soon. However, that currently estimated 8 to 11 percent may just be wishful thinking... it could be higher than that.

Artful Dodger: we jumped .50 in the past 2 weeks

Bwild: We're past 4 bucks here. There was a refinery fire and since then the prices here have remained high most of the time.

rod03801: Ok, just funnin with the V guy.

I wonder which oil company stands to gain the most from the recent attacks on American embassies?
I paid 3.72 for 87 octane today.

Some of this stuff is getting a little too personal again, and needs to stop, please.

Keep it to the topics, and not what you would have to do to be like someone else posting, etc.

Thanks!

Bwild: Wait a sec. How did we ridicule anyone?

Iamon lyme: Well I'm not giving up on the booze and if I eat enough beans I'll be full of what he's full of.

(V): Act like what?

Ephesians 5

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

“Wake up, O sleeper,

rise from the dead,

and Christ will shine on you.”

....... But I do like this version.. David, I love you man!!

Twin Peaks rulz

mckinley: its self explanatory.any educated person knows the meaning.
it does seem rather odd, that 2..now 3 christians here on this board want to criticize and ridicule anyone that throws out another option or opinion. so much for "brotherly love."
myself...I'll stick to the "harm ye none" philosophy.

Artful Dodger: [ <---ok now I'm ready ]

On second thought imitating (V) would be exhausting. Building mazes with false and misleading pathways is not something that comes naturally for me. And boozing it up doesn't work for me either... I would be the icon who is always falling down.

No, in order to pull off a good imitation of how he talks would require even more coffee than I'm accustomed to drinking, along with enough Nyquil to knock out a horse for several hours. I think using a master maze builder template is the best way to go... on the other hand, intentionally whiplashing our brains from one side to the other could cause permanent damage.

So I think V may have a point... we must conceed a point to the undisputed pettifogery champion.

You know you two, when you act like this it is a sign you have no further argument without conceding a point.

<---ok now I'm ready