(V): Pressure on Israel? For what? They aren't lobbing bombs indiscriminately into neighborhoods and blowing up planes and blowing up buses. Are you nuts?

Artful Dodger: No.. it hasn't really been tried properly, the US has always vetoed any serious attempt by the UN to put pressure on Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fucpus065C4

Is it the Israeli influence in Washington that keeps something being done? It's well known they have spies in the USA!!

(V): Peace will never happen between muslims and Israel. It's delusional to think otherwise. As if what you have suggested hasn't happened. You couldn't get three weeks of genuine peace. You can't change hearts.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yeah, I read. Just as I read the problem starts back before a little, with the first influx of 'Israelites' in the period after WWI.

Also I read, that Jewish freedom fighters just after WWII started a terrorist campaign against the British administration. Bombing, assassination and violent uprisings led to the British having to have a force of 100,000 troops.

"When children grow up looking at those things, they grow up hating each other. Israeli children grow up afraid of Palestinian attacks. Palestinian children grow up terrified of Israel's military might. That is a recipe for eternal mutual fear and hatred."

Don't I know it.

"Even if western empires could do something, three generations of war have made sure that the old wounds will never heal."

I cannot agree with that. Alot of time would be required to heal the wounds.. decades. But it is possible. But not without a third party acting as peace keepers.

(V):

> such hostile countries as said do surround Israel

The truth is that Israel is in trouble. It was in trouble from the start. First, the British Empire made a big cokup of the whole thing. They used to control Palestine and Israel after WW II. They just granted Israel statehood wihtout even considering that there were other people living there too. The British Empire acted in the traditional way that empires do. They made a decision wihtout even considering the local population of their colony.

As soon as Israel was formed, the locals became angry at being displaced. Since all western empires were supporting Israel and doing nothing to rectify a growing problem, all the neighboring countries declared war. Now we have Palestianians displaced and living under an occupation. Israel is isolated in its territory, sturggling as best as they can to protect themselves. Western empires continue to be ineffectual in their efforts to make things better because rather than being fair and impartial, western empires prefer to play a game of geopolitics and strategic alliances.

Watching TV says all about why Israel and Palestine will never get along. A group of Palestinian school children are standing next to the blown-up remais of their school. An Israeli fighter jet blew it up. Then on the other side there is a bus blown up by a Palestinian insurgent in Tel Aviv. I see women and children standing around looking at that wreckage. When children grow up looking at those things, they grow up hating each other. Israeli children grow up afraid of Palestinian attacks. Palestinian children grow up terrified of Israel's military might. That is a recipe for eternal mutual fear and hatred. My heart goes out to those people because I know nothing will get better as long as western empires countinue to favor only one side over the other. Even if western empires could do something, three generations of war have made sure that the old wounds will never heal.

Übergeek 바둑이: I had heard people mention it's been going on that long, but I wouldn't have thought a feud could go on for so long.

"by all accounts, are a nuclear superpower just like their opponents are!"

mmm.... that is a just a rumour. One that seems to be true, otherwise such hostile countries as said do surround Israel could get together and invade any time.

... If that is, the US presence wasn't there.

(V):

> Technically.. it's been going on for decades. That's how I look at it.

Technically it has been going on for the last 4,000 years. Genesis is clear on how Abraham went to war with his neighbors as soon as he had left Chaldea. Nobody wants to admit it but this is the product of a war culture that goes back for several thousand years, and belief in religions that turn a blind eye to violence because "god is on our side".

What really strikes me about this conflict is that it is really a fair fight. Obviously Palestians receive as much money and weapons from the West as Israelis do. In fact, those home-made rockets do tilt the balance of power in favor of the Palestinians, who, by all accounts, are a nuclear superpower just like their opponents are!

The Col: Technically.. it's been going on for decades. That's how I look at it.

"Politically speaking you are well aware of the many differing opinions in Israel, and specifically The Knesset in regards to finding a lasting peace, but when it comes to defending against attacks, they unite."

Well aware, n' yes.. I expect them to unite. It'd be quite an event if a significant portion said no retaliations.

(V):re : " Although Jabari's killing signalled the start of Israel's offensive, it was preceded by spates of deadly cross-border violence which saw Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas's Qassam Brigades, firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel and the Israeli military shelling Gaza and carrying out air strikes."

Exactly , they started it, and Israel was well within their rights to respond.Politically speaking you are well aware of the many differing opinions in Israel, and specifically The Knesset in regards to finding a lasting peace, but when it comes to defending against attacks, they unite.

The Col: Exactly as they have done unfortunately.

"Who started this recent round of bombings?"

""Israel's offensive on Gaza began with an air strike that killed the commander of Hamas's military wing, Ahmed Jabari, whom it accused of responsibility for "all terrorist activities against Israel from Gaza" over the past decade.

IDF ... subsequently announced the start of Operation Pillar of Defence, which it said was intended to protect Israeli civilians from rockets and mortars fired by militants in Gaza, as well as cripple Hamas's capability to launch attacks.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the operation was launched because he could no longer "accept a situation in which Israeli citizens are threatened by the terror of rockets"....

....Hamas, which has governed Gaza since 2007, said Jabari's assassination had "opened the gates of hell".

Although Jabari's killing signalled the start of Israel's offensive, it was preceded by spates of deadly cross-border violence which saw Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas's Qassam Brigades, firing hundreds of rockets into southern Israel and the Israeli military shelling Gaza and carrying out air strikes.

Some observers have noted that the offensive was launched only nine weeks before parliamentary elections in Israel. Others have alleged that Operation Pillar of Defence was intended to undermine the Palestinian plan to request non-member observer state status at the UN later in November.

>>>>>> Do you agree?

(V): Who started this recent round of bombings?

And how do you think Israel should have responded?

Artful Dodger: So a hijacked plane with a bomb on it, killing civilians is different from a bomb on the bus how? Less casualties?? Smaller explosion??

The PLO were at it before Hamas, the PLO then junked the attitude and started working towards a deal. I'm not saying the 'talks' were done with everyone holding hands singing songs.. but it was a leap from an active terrorist group.

Hamas needs their cause taken away, they need to be not the source of basic goods in Gaza that Israel and the 'democratic' Egypt are blocking. Hamas are bringing them through tunnels and the people of Gaza want and quite often, need these goods for a normal life.

... normality tends not to breed terrorists. It's not rocket science.

(V): I never said anything about planes. I said bombs from Gaza. Israel should never have given up Gaza or ANY territory. Israel has never shed blood without just cause. It's the terrorists that always start things by killing innocent people. Did you miss the recent bus being blown up? And Hamas celebrated. Hamas needs to be wiped out completely.

Artful Dodger: Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a conventional name, among others, for the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.[1][2][3][4][5][6] The region is also known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el),[7] the Holy Land and the Southern Levant,[8] and historically has been known by other names including Canaan, Zion, Syria Palaestina, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin and Outremer.

The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history, and were first defined in modern times by the Franco-British boundary agreement (1920) and the Transjordan memorandum of 16 September 1922, during the mandate period. Today, the region comprises the country of Israel and the Palestinian territories.[9] ......

In 1830, on the eve of Muhammad Ali's invasion, the Ottoman Porte transferred control of the sanjaks of Jerusalem and Nablus to Abdullah Pasha, the governor of Acre. According to Silverburg, in regional and cultural terms this move was important for creating an Arab Palestine detached from Syria (bilad al-Shams). According to Pappe, it was an attempt to reinforce the Syrian front in face of Muhammad Ali's invasion.[41][42] Two years later, in 1832, Palestine was conquered by Muhammad Ali's Egypt, but in 1840, Britain intervened and returned control of the Levant to the Ottomans in return for further capitulations. The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration and the Revival of the Hebrew language. The movement was publicly supported by Great Britain during World War I with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

The British began their Sinai and Palestine Campaign in 1915. The war reached southern Palestine in 1917 progressing to Gaza and around Jerusalem by the end of the year.

" And when Israel gave up Gaza, that's when the bombs started."

So the PLO never hijacked planes, etc before hand?

"Stop making excuses for the terrorists."

Then stop proclaiming the Israelis hands are without blood.. Even our UK government has had to admit the Israelis can be wrong. Like when they broke an agreement not to use UK passports to hide the identity of assassins sent out by Israeli intelligence.

(V): There has never been a Palestinian state ever. They've never owned the land. And when Israel gave up Gaza, that's when the bombs started. You don't bomb civilians. Stop making excuses for the terrorists.

The Col: Like some Israelis are raised from birth. Gotta love Louis Theroux..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb652kwbcic&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=lX18zUp6WPY

The Col: It's an "us and them" an "ism" .. In NI it was just in the end about Protestant and Catholic.

Yes.. I'm not saying the blowing up of a bus is ok.. It's not. But the death toll at the moment seems to be heavily Palestinian.

It's tit for tat imo now.

Artful Dodger: I cannot agree. While a good sized proportion is the fault of militant Palestinian groups, some of the policies Israel has taken, alot of the ignoring of basic rights for Palestinians to keep land they own and not have anyone to stop Israeli citizens driving them out of their homes and/or land.

.... The list of prohibited goods. While weapons is obvious, some of the others seem .. excessive. The relaxation of the prohibited list in 2010 was a good step.. that it was 5 years too late so Hamas didn't get more support.

Hi guys I am new here, found some interesting discussion topic here, really excited for further discussions.

The Col: My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking it will never change.

Artful Dodger: And these are Israel's partners in peace?They are raised from infancy to hate, they know nothing else.If the Palestinians truly want peace, allowing a terrorist organization like Hamas to represent them is not the way to achieve it.Hamas doesn't want peace, of peaceful co existence, it would put them out of business

The Col: And they celebrated their success openly.

(V): It's a unique situation , and not based on racism as SA was.Can you imagine the uproar if the Israelis bombed a public transit bus, as the Palestinians did today? and have done so many times in the past.

Washington Times:

...Frantic efforts under way at the moment by assorted diplomats aimed at containing hostilities between Israel and the terrorist enclave known as the Gaza Strip (primarily by blocking Israel’s decisive retaliation) cannot obscure a dismal reality: The crescendo of rockets and missiles unleashed by the Palestinians on Israeli civilians are a predictable repercussion of President Obama’s reckless defense and foreign policies.

Consider how such attacks — and the danger to Israel and to us that is growing by the day — have been aided and abetted by an Obama doctrine that can be described in nine words: Embolden our enemies, undermine our friends, diminish our country.

(V): The fault is not with Israel. Not even an ounce.

The Col: I'm not talking about the 'holocaust' part. But what it creates, just like in South Africa... maybe that'd be the better example.

(V): This is why , comparing Gaza to the Warsaw ghetto is ignorant V , and ignorant you are not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcoTlBAjz9s

N' why do Hamas leaders get phone calls off the Israelis telling them their house is gonna get bombed?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd6_1353438382

If they are that bad.....

Artful Dodger: Yes, a small group can. N' maybe if the Israeli's did something about the prosecution/attacks on legit Palestinians from their homes, gave back the lands they've stolen...

.. would the US allow a country to steal land from it?

A cause takes building, being forced to live in a ghetto builds anger.

Google a look at the ghetto's that the Jews were forced to live in the Nazi's.

... this is what gets me. We all know what bad quality of life that was. Why are we supposed to think the ghetto's the Palestinians live in are any better?

(V): a small group can't shoot 100 rockets a day into Israel. And far more than a small group of people put Hamas in power.

Artful Dodger: That's BS.. a small group probably do, as a small group of Israelis would like to wipe out the Palestinians.

From surveys and interviews.. most just wanna live in peace!!

The Col: I couldn't agree more.

Hamas doesn't want peace , it would put them out of business, same with Arafat, that's why he walked on proposals that later were determined to be more than fair.Israel does want peace, it makes no sense for them to want anything other than peaceful co-existence .

So do the math.This is a quote that pretty much sums up the situation

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
What bothers me most is not that Arabs kill our children, but that they force us to kill theirs"

-Golda Meir

(V): True. However, the only real solution the Palestinians will accept is not the destruction of Israel but the complete destruction of the Jews. They, the Palestinians are the real problem.

Artful Dodger: Different war, different scenario....carpet bombing resulted in the deaths of millions of civilians.

We speak English because we (as in the allies) all fought. N' I doubt if we'd be speaking German if they did win. It'd just be a second language.

(V): I don't know about that. We bombed the hell out of Germany and destroyed their military and their ability to continue their aggression. You speak English as a result.

Artful Dodger: Both are aggressors.

"Just like the Bible said they would in these end days."

Now... don't give me that baloney. Officially.. as in going by dates .. this world Biblically ended 6 years ago.

Bad interpretation.

Iamon lyme: To many in the media, Israel can do no right and the terrorists can do no wrong.

Even some in America (and the world) have suggested that the USA try to "understand" why the terrorists are trying to kill us etc. Why are they so mad at us? If we try to see things from their point of view, maybe they'll stop trying to blow us up.

How about this: We just keep killing as many of them as we can until they are all dead. That sounds like a better plan to me. I couldn't care less why they hate the US. I don't like my neighbors. They have too many animals and they crap in my yard (they animals, not the neighbors). They play loud music and their kids have late night noisy backyard parties when I'm trying to sleep.

But I just ignore them because they have the right to do those things. It's not against the law to own animals and you can play loud music up to a certain time at night. And what would one expect teens to do at night in the summer? Go to bed early? So instead of bombing my neighbor's house I live and let live. I can't tell other people how to live and I have no right to harm them just because they piss me off.

The UN should get that message to the terrorists and put the Arab nations on notice that the world will no longer tolerate their terrorist ways. Oh wait, the Arab nations are in the UN so that won't work will it.

Guess we'll just have to keep killing them back.

Bwild: The bombing of anyone isn't gonna end this 'war'. It'll just make more rEvEnGe.

(V): Yes but the terrorists need to stop initiating and sustaining the conflict. Israel is responding and the terrorists are the aggressors. Perhaps the UN could tell the Arab world to knock it off and leave Israel alone. That will never happen. Too many people hate Israel. Just like the Bible said they would in these end days.

Artful Dodger: mmmmm ... ... In certain respects regarding this problem. I think it's time the UN did tell the US to back any UN action, instead of vetoing it.. like many times in the past.

113 dead, and God knows how many wounded in this round.

Artful Dodger: [ Israel assassinates the bad guys and they get ticked because then they have to train a new top terrorist leader. ]

Have you noticed there are fewer suicide bombings? New recruits are harder to find... and all of the really good ones are dead.

I don't mean to sound sympathic of the terrorists, because I'm not. But there are times I think I've tuned into a day time drama "reality show" when I hear someone feeling their pain in one of those "man in the street interviews". I often hear people saying Israelites should NOT be aggressively defending themselves. Yeah, right... you betcha. If those same bombs were dropping in their neighborhoods, you and I both know those same people would be singing a different story. They've never had to deal with something like that, so they can't even imagine what it's like.

I'm not sure if I've been listening to slanted news reports, or if 50 years of dumbing down the general population really has paid off for the liberal establishment.

Nevertheless, considering the fact that Israel is (and has been) under constant assualt, it would be absurd it they didn't defend themselves.

Bwild: Well likely Iran is behind the bombings in Israel so you're right about bombing Iran. The terrorists want Israel to stop killing its leaders but its leaders are coordinating bombing of Israeli citizens. So Israel assassinates the bad guys and they get ticked because then they have to train a new top terrorist leader.

Artful Dodger: they should be bombing Iran,not Palestine or the Gaza strip.

(V): I don't know. I wouldn't want the UN telling the US what to do.

Artful Dodger: ... tricky. Some Israelis want the two state solution implemented, some don't. But that is something that'll require the UN involved, not direct negotiations.

It needs to be done.

(V): What would you do if you were Israel?

Israel tactics and the Palestinian militants tactics are both manure.

Maybe in 20 years time they'll stop fighting.. or maybe Israel will roll in full throttle and wipe out the Palestinians.

Dirty stupid war that is the truth.

Artful Dodger: that about nails it

And while I'm at it, what is the matter with Israel? Why are they shooting bombs into Gaza??? Are in insane? inhumane?!!! Don't they know that the terrorists of Gaza hide behind women and children?

So what that the terrorists in Gaza are shooting rockets at civilians living in Israel! Big deal!!! That's what terrorists do! duh!!! Get a clue Israel! Those guys in Gaza are terrorists and it's OKAY for terrorists to bomb and kill (Just ask the New York Times). But Israel is NOT made up of terrorists. They are peaceful and peaceful people don't bomb other people not even when they are trying to kill you.

So Israel, stop bombing the terrorists and trying to protect your people and your land. Just built more shelters and hope for the best. Maybe you should give the terrorists what they want and just all drown yourselves into the sea. Or move to Minnesota or something. Maybe Alaska. Or better yet, California.

Then the terrorists will stop killing you in Israel.

(they'll then start killing you in your new land but at least they won't complain about the land of Israel anymore!)