mctrivia: true enough, I was just pointing out that after the first dice roll, it's no longer an even game. Omitting that roll the player who "really" rolls first has the advantage. It's also fair to say that in longer-running games the odds even out. A good example is go, where there's no official agreement on what komi should be, but for 99% of games it won't matter if it's off by a point or two after playing 200 moves.