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5. August 2012, 19:22:43
Mort 
Subject: But.. regarding Descartes Dan....
in his earlier works Descartes was inclined also to refer to various images in the brain as ideas.[13] And though he abandons this use in his later work, that's not so much a change of view as a clarification. Continuing definition (3) above, he writes:

… [I]t is not only the images depicted in the imagination which I call ‘ideas.’ Indeed, in so far as these images are in the corporeal imagination, that is, are depicted in some part of the brain, I do not call them ‘ideas’ at all; I call them ‘ideas’ only in so far as they give form to [informant] the mind itself, when it is directed towards that part of the brain. (2nd Replies, II.113, AT VII.160-1)

[I]n no case are the ideas of things presented to us by the senses just as we form them in our thinking. So much so that there is nothing in our ideas which is not innate to the mind or the faculty of thinking …. Nothing reaches our mind from external objects through the sense organs except certain corporeal motions … But neither the motions themselves nor the figures arising from them are conceived by us exactly as they occur in the sense organs … Hence it follows that the very ideas of the motions themselves and of the figures are innate in us. The ideas of pain, colours, sounds, and the like must be all the more innate … for there is no similarity between these ideas and the corporeal motions [which cause their production]. (Comments, I.304, AT VIIIB.358-9)

Consequently these ideas, along with that faculty [of thinking], are innate in us, i.e. they always exist within us potentially, for to exist in some faculty is not to exist actually, but merely potentially … (Comments I.305, AT VIIIA.360)

In so far as the ideas are <considered> simply <as> modes of thought, there is no recognizable inequality among them … But in so far as different ideas <are considered as images which> represent different things, it is clear that they differ widely. (3rd Med., II.27-28, AT VII.40; cf. Principles I.17, I.198-9, AT VIIIA.11)

When M. Arnauld says ‘if cold is merely an absence, there cannot be an idea of cold which represents it as a positive thing,’ it is clear that he is dealing solely with an idea taken in the formal sense. Since ideas are forms of a kind, and are not composed of any matter, when we think of them as representing something we are taking them not materially but formally. If, however, we were considering them not as representing this or that, but simply as operations of the intellect, then it could be said that we were taking them materially, but in that case they would have no reference to the truth or falsity of their objects. (4th Replies, II.162-3, AT VII.232)

[T]here is an ambiguity here in the word ‘idea.’ ‘Idea’ can be taken materially, as an operation of the intellect, in which case it cannot be said to be more perfect than me. Alternatively, it can be taken objectively, as the thing represented by that operation; and this thing, even if it is not regarded as existing outside the intellect, can still, in virtue of its essence, be more perfect than myself. (Preface to Med., II.7, AT VII.8)

....... I think therefore I am... or I am therefore I think??

5. August 2012, 21:17:36
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: But.. regarding Descartes Dan....
(V): my response to this post is: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz You're still wrong. And now you're boring too!

5. August 2012, 21:20:00
Mort 
Subject: Re: But.. regarding Descartes Dan....
Artful Dodger: Sorry I spoiled your misquote YET AGAIN

5. August 2012, 21:40:56
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: But.. regarding Descartes Dan....
(V): No, you're just not willing to accept the fact that no ideas are completely original if they copy or use even ONE idea from something else. The inter-relationship between ideas makes that virtually impossible. The word "original" pertains to the origins or beginnings of something. For an idea to truly be "original" it MUST precede all others. You might invent something that appears to be completely original but on closer inspection it's clear that elements of the idea preceded it's inception. Sticky Notes is a good example of a BAD example of an original idea. There is nothing about a sticky note that is new with the exception of the glue strip on the back. That's the ONLY part of that idea that is "new." And yet the concept of sticking notes here and there as reminders preceded the invention of sticky notes.

But we were talking about thought and ideas and specifically ideas of a politician (any will do). And so going back to The Col's whine about Mitt: No one, not even Obama has had an original thought. Obama's actually continuing some of the very same Bush policies that got us in the financial mess. Name even ONE original thought from Obama and we can trace that idea back into history.

Once again, yer schooled.

5. August 2012, 21:43:14
Mort 
Subject: Re: Name even ONE original thought from Obama and we can trace that idea back into history.
Artful Dodger: Yeah, yeah, yeah.... I said as such earlier about Jesus.

So? We pick and nit pick everything... and end up nowhere!! 3*

5. August 2012, 21:45:07
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: Name even ONE original thought from Obama and we can trace that idea back into history.
(V): You are the one picking. I made a point and you wouldn't accept it even though I am right about it. No one has had an original thought. Especially you.

5. August 2012, 21:47:45
Mort 
Subject: Re: Name even ONE original thought from Obama and we can trace that idea back into history.
Artful Dodger: No Dan.. you are not. You've taken a philosophical look at ideas and thinking and taken it out of context.

5. August 2012, 21:48:17
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: Name even ONE original thought from Obama and we can trace that idea back into history.
(V): NOPE Jule.

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