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14. April 2011, 16:50:15

Übergeek 바둑이

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Subject: Re: The UK gone mad

Artful Dodger:

> Desecrate A Quran, Go To Jail; Desecrate A Bible, Get Subsidized & Have It Displayed As 'Art'

(V):

> ".....By the book is a container of pens and a notice saying: “If you feel you have been excluded from the Bible, please write your way back into it.”

Sometimes what passes for art is dubious. I see the point of what the artist was trying to point out to. Man is made in God's image. It seems reasonable to feel excluded from the Bible since the Bible presents a relatively narrow view of right and wrong, and it excludes a large number of people in the world (basicly anybody who does not believe in the Abrahamic God).

At the same time, people write comments that express anger and resentment, without being constructive. If the artist had been smarter, he would have put several sacred texts. Put a Koran next to a Bible, a Bhaghavad Gita, a Book of Mormon, the Digha Nikaya, etc. Then present a juxtaposition: Made in what God's image? If you feel left out by any God in particular, write yourself back in.

Well, religion arises a lot of passion in people. The reason why I never had faith in any God is because while God may have made man in its (his, hers?) own image, man tries to portray God in his own image. In giving to God human qualities, we limit God to our own human foibles (God is jealous, vengeful, wrathful, etc.) We assign to God human limitations and emotions, and thus reduce God to our level. We view God as a petty minded, jealous, selfish individual, rather than as an all-encompassing limitless being who sees beyond the distinctions of organized religion, which is in essence a limiting human construct.

Organized religion reduces God a favoritist being who favours one group of human beings at the exclusion of all others. Those in my religion will go to Heaven. Those outside of it will go to Hell. God will make sure of that, because God, limited as we human beings are, plays favorites in the universe.

In that sense Buddhism is the superior belief system. The ego is the limiting factor, not God. It is the petty atttachments of the ego that limit humanity and make it selfish, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, etc. Our view of God within those limitations is merely a projection of our ego, and not a protrayal of God himself.

Well, it is hypocritical to single out the Bible that way, as it is hypocritical to burn the Koran, or to single out any organized religion. But the artist is trying to provoke a response. Unfortunately, western society is obsessed with religion and the validity of Christianity.

15. April 2011, 15:30:39

Mort

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Subject: Re: We assign to God human limitations and emotions, and thus reduce God to our level. We view God as a petty minded, jealous, selfish individual, rather than as an all-encompassing limitless being who sees beyond the distinctions of organized religion..

Übergeek 바둑이: Some followers of God do.. some don't. It is in essence a matter of dogma, also as in some cases old fears and grudges. It is not how all God followers feel regarding God or other people.

http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm .... explains more and in certain respects goes away from the standard 'Bible basher' view regarding sin and evil.. or as described in such as Buddhism or Zen as ego. In the past I found most religions complement each other to an honest observer. There again as one who tends to find the likes of Eastern Orthodoxy and the Desert fathers as a more pure form of Christianity without the influences of Roman and Greek Gods imposed on God.

15. April 2011, 18:31:11

Übergeek 바둑이

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(V):

That makes for very interesting reading. Ramban's (Maimonides) view of the yetzer tov (good impulse) and yetzer ra (evil impulse) makes more sense than simply personifying evil in the Devil and then blaming the Devil for tempting humanity.

Buddhism sees all human actions as arising from the ego. Everything that is constructive and destructive in humanity arises from the need to satisfy our ego and to control the inherent impermanence of the universe. That is more like the yetzer ra explanation in that link. The big difference is that Buddhism sees everything as impermanent and ever changing. The idea of an eternal, unchanging God goes against that Buddhist idea. It is why Buddhism is a religion without Gods. (That does not mean that Mahayana Buddhists do not rever Buddha as if he were a God, but in the Hinayana tradition Buddhism has no Gods.)

For me the problem is not so much in the interpretation fo the Bible, but in how organized religion uses fear of punishment to control people. Organized religion also limits God. "God believes only in those who believe what our religion bleives. The rest are doomed to eternal punishment. Everything that we can know about God is in the Bible. Outside of the Bible all that we have are interpretations, but God gave us only this one book."

To think that the Bible is the only thing we can know about God is very limiting. If God is infinite, then explaining everything about God would require an infinite number of books. One book is at best a starting point. Anybody who claims that they know God from reading the one book is like claiming to know the ocean when all that you have seen in your life is a drop of water. We have read one book, and based on that we tell ourselves that we know God's nature and God's purpose. Then in our limited way we assign to God petty human limitations.

"God accepts my religion but not others." "Our team is the winning footbal team and other teams don't even know how to play the game." It sounds like a very petty view of God to me. If God plays favorites, why make the rest of humanity? Then we contradict ourselves and we say that God works in myseterious ways. With one sentence we say we know God from the one book, and with another we say that we don't understand God. It is nothing but a reflection of our limitations, not God's.

15. April 2011, 19:17:32

Mort

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Subject: Re: The big difference is that Buddhism sees everything as impermanent and ever changing. The idea of an eternal, unchanging God goes against that Buddhist idea. It is why Buddhism is a religion without Gods.

Modified by Mort (15. April 2011, 21:44:14)

Übergeek 바둑이:

It's not that simple. I like how Aristotle talks about an unmoved mover. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

Also Origen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

15. April 2011, 23:52:03

Übergeek 바둑이

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(V):

Well, Christian philosphy is in essence stoic philosophy. Origen is proof of that. Stoicism was founded by Zeno, and he saw the universe itself as God. That is in perfect line with the Abrahamic religions and it is why stoicism became so influential on early Christian thought. The unmoved mover that Aristotle presented was also in line with Abrahamic thought. It is for these reasons that Christians adopted Aristotelian, Platonic and stoic philosophies. Once stoicism had taken hold in Christianity, the pagan origins of the philosophy had to be discarded and that was done by Justinian I in 529 BC when he closed all Graeco-Roman philosophy schools. In doing so the complete absorption of stoicism into Christianity took place, and the denial of its Greek and Roman origins plunged western culture into obscurantism. It took about 800 years for western culture to mature to a point where it could accept Graeco-Roman philosophy without seeing it as some pagan threat to Christianity.

Of course, believing in the unmoved mover, or a similar theistic view of the universe, is an act of faith. Nobody can prove scientifically that there was an "unmoved mover" or a god when the universe was created. As with everything to do with God, faith is the determining factor. Without faith Graeco-Roman (and later Christian) idealism fall apart.

16. April 2011, 20:48:29

Mort

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Subject: Re: Of course, believing in the unmoved mover, or a similar theistic view of the universe, is an act of faith. Nobody can prove scientifically that there was an "unmoved mover" or a god when the universe was created.

Übergeek 바둑이: I do admit when it comes to physics and the nature of the universe, multiverse, strings, branes, where gravity has gotten to, quantum level physics.... etc.

.... much of the cutting edge of physics now is just theory. When Einstein developed his theory's he knew that at a certain level his theory failed... but we have black holes as a result. A vital part in the creation of galaxies.

But you do have recorded in the Bible something of interest. How did Moses manage to see events that were caused by a volcano before they arrived? Psychic senses?.. a throw back to animal senses?? God??? A mix?

"In doing so the complete absorption of stoicism into Christianity took place, and the denial of its Greek and Roman origins plunged western culture into obscurantism"

Yes, but we have now thanks to the internet and such old fashioned things as libraries... at least we do have in the UK where one can study history and philosophy of the church(churches) the divisions, relations, wars, mass murders. The lost gospels.. the roots of Moses knowledge of God, etc, etc, etc.

"Without faith Graeco-Roman (and later Christian) idealism fall apart."

Isn't the difference between enlightened and unenlightened a matter of knowing and faith that you can know nothing?