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12. September 2010, 06:26:02
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Re: Organized religion
Artful Dodger:

> I don't think there is just one single reason to believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

The question is: "Is the Bible the ONLY word of God?" Many Christians are offended to even think that anything other than the Bible could also be the word of God. The same is true of Moslems who regard the verses of the Koran as the ONLY word of God.

If I showed somebody a book on modern chemistry, physic or genetics, could they consider that also the word of God? I see science as the new word of God, yet I am probably a heretic for saying that. If God's words are ONLY in ONE book, then God is a limited being, and we just imposed a human limitation on God. If God accepts ONLY MY beliefs, then I just imposed my own human limitations on God. But God, as an infinite being, can only be described in an infinite number of books, and by an infinite number of beliefs.

It is why I see organized religion as wrong. A "spiritual leader" goes and tells people his or her interpretation of God, and reduces God to ONLY that interpretation. Now God became a limited being, conforming to the expectations of the spiritual leader and those who will believe him or her. Intelligent people see beyond pre-digested interpretations of God, but sadly, people don't always act according to their intelligence. Some of the worst terrorists have PhD degrees, having being educated in Oxford or Harvard. In spite of their intelligence, they believe blindly, and so do many intelligent Westerners who think that war against Islam is OK.

> I do however believe that many do blindly follow their political leaders.

Aren't many religious leaders in posession of political and economic power too? I recall some church leaders in the US telling people that they should vote for George W. Bush because if they did not they could go to Hell. Could the United States vote for a man (or woman) if that person said openly "I am an atheist" or "I am a Moslem"? Even now tabloids accuse President Obama of being a Moslem. Intelligent people will see though all this, yet, millions believe what they are told or what they read, without questioning whether it is true or not.

I grew up in a Christian family. As a child I went to two schools, one run by Baptists and another one run by Catholics. all through my childhood I saw pastors and priests tell both children and adults to believe, without really explaining why. And people accepted it, because they were afraid of eternal damnation. I ask myself why it is that I did not learn about how Saint Paul transformed Christianity, or how the four Gospels were probably based on one or two earlier books, or how the New Testament did not exist until 300 years after Christ died. I had to become an adult and apply the scientific method to religion to understand those things. Yet, how many people actually do that? Most people don't even know when the oldest hand-written version of the Bible is, and whether 2,000 years of copying and recopying have changed the text.

It is the word of God and you better believe it or you will go to Hell. Now I removed reasoning and intellect from the equation. Then the believer has become an automaton that never questions. I realize that not everybody is like that, but many religions operate that way, and particularly the extremist religions.

12. September 2010, 06:47:38
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: Organized religion
Übergeek 바둑이: Read the Naked Gospel and you'll know what I believe. Much of what we were taught in our earlier years was due to the cultural of the church at that time. Give em fire and brimstone etc. There are many church teachings that aren't biblical. Tradition sometimes trumps truth. That's why we must do our own digging and like the Bereans, we check the Scriptures for ourselves.

If the Bible is true, than no other "holy book" can be true. The Koran can't be true if the Bible is true and vice versa. You can't have two competing truth claims and accept them both as true.

The Bible is the revealed Word of God. It's his Word to us. If we believe what the Bible says, it's not "our belief" that matters but what matters is the TRUTH of that in which we believe. If I believe in something that isn't true, my belief isn't what matters. What matters is the reality that what I believe isn't in fact true. So what really matters isn't belief, but TRUTH. I don't mean the kind of "truth" that one finds in a post-modern system. Relativism is self refuting and illogical. However, objective truth makes complete logical sense and in spite of fancy arguments to the contrary, we live by a firm adherence to objective truth.

It make little sense that God's Revealed Word would be found in a multitude of way if those differing ways are contradictory. Something cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same way. So IF the Bible is God's Word to us, that all other truth claims must be rejected if they contradict the Bible's revealed TRUTH. In the same way, if the Koran is true, then the Bible is false. They can both be false, but they can't both be true.

12. September 2010, 07:21:56
tyyy 
Subject: Re: Organized religion
Modified by tyyy (12. September 2010, 07:26:30)
Artful Dodger: so intolerance.. no gray areas.. its either my religion and how I see it or nothing. God loves me and hates you..I was raised Lutheran... no hope.. flesh and blood matters not..kill the unbeliever..wipe them out...God told me to. oh.. and as a reward.. we get their land and natural resources too just a higher form of primate are we?

12. September 2010, 07:43:28
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: so intolerance.. no gray areas.. its either my religion and how I see it or nothing. God loves me and hates you..
Modified by Papa Zoom (12. September 2010, 07:43:47)
GTCharlie: No, that's not what I said. Your belief and my belief don't matter ultimately. What matters ultimately is what is TRUE.

And it's not intolerance to believe that Christianity is TRUE and other beliefs are false. It's logical to believe that and illogical to believe otherwise (if you are a Christian).

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