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14. July 2009, 22:35:48
Übergeek 바둑이 
Subject: Waterboarding
In reponse to this comment:

> For all the hype, this fact seems to make the "torture" claim insignificant.
> Waterboarding cannot kill and was only used in extreme cases.

I have read the interesting posts. It occurred to me to go and find the definition of torture and see if waterboarding falls under that definition.

According to the United Nations Convention Against Torture torture is defined as:

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

I think waterboarding does cause severe pain and suffering. The pain might not be physical, but it certainly is psychological. Since it was part of an interrogation procedure, it was used to obtain information. It was used to coerce information or confession from captives and it was done by intelligence agents acting on behalf of the government.

It was out of this definition that waterboarding became classified as a form of torture.

I think the litmus test would be as to alternative applications of the procedure by governments other than that of the US. Suppose that an American soldier or intelligence officer was captured by an enemy and subjected to waterboarding. Would it be acceptable then?

There is no doubt in my mind that waterboarding and similar techniques are used not only by the US, but by many countries around the world. By the legal definition under the UN CAT (see above) I think waterboarding is torture. If we say that it is OK for our side to use it, then we should not be surprised when our enemies start using it against us.

14. July 2009, 23:29:30
Papa Zoom 
Subject: Re: Waterboarding
Übergeek 바둑이:"cause severe pain and suffering."  is subjective  and certainly less painful and causes less suffering than say having one's toes and fingers removed.  It's not meant to be pleasant.  It's meant to be used only as a last resort and NEVER to be used as general policy.  But it's one tool that should  be in the tool box should the need arise.

Meanwhile, who will be blamed when we have a terrorist captured who could provide intel on an attack that will certainly kill hundreds of lives and we offer tea and crumpets instead of waterboarding?  The terrorist act goes through, 700 are killed, their bodies ripped apart by bombs.  And the terrorist sips his tea and the US powers say, well, there was nothing we could do.  We knew he had information on a pending attack but we could only ask him nicely to tell us.  We did ask please.

And BTW, the "enemy" is already employing harsh techniques.  Um, they cut off parts of the body and mostly they kill whom they capture and drag their bodies through the streets.

I prefer to be waterboarded over decapatation.

15. July 2009, 04:42:36
Czuch 
Subject: Re: Waterboarding
Übergeek 바둑이: It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.


So it is not torture to inflict this kind of pain if it involves a lawful sanction? So, if I make a law saying that waterboarding is a lawful way to interrogate a terrorist suspect, then all of a sudden it is not torture anymore????

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