I want to ask 4 questions about the BKR formula and philosophy of it and 1 more....:

Today i won an Atomic Chess game against an opponent who is 1782 BKR points, while i have 2438. And i won the amazing number of 0 points.....

My first question is:
How many points i would lose AND how many points my opponent would win if:
a)The game would be draw......?
b)I would lose the game.......?
(Better of course would be if Fencer would give the exact formula (not the known link which isn't clear) but i know Fencer will not(This is an observation-Fencer always avoids to give the formula....))

My second question is:
OK, the BKR difference between me and my opponent was big as the formula gives 0 points for a win (actually gives me a decrease of my BKR but this would be ridiculous so it is set to zero), but do you find it "fair" or "logical" to reward 0 points to someone that won......?
I enjoy playing Atomic Chess and i don't care too much about BKR, but i don't ignore it totally. My motivation to play against lower rated opponents, would become higher if i would gain some points (even 3-4) by winning...........
Is there any chance that this would change............?
It isn't reasonable.......

My third question is:
I see that the limit 2700 exist in various options when creating tournaments/games...etc. Is this the absolute BKR limit and nobody can have a BKR higher than this...........?

My fourth question is:
I have around 300 completed Backgammon games and 100 Hyper-Backgammon.
When i win or lose against an equal opponent at Backgammon, i gain or lose 8 points ALWAYS! When i win or lose against an equal opponent at Hyper-Backgammon, i gain or lose 19-25 points.......
Why is that happening.............?

My fifth question is:
What the "Activate pulldown game menu" does........?
I have activated today and nothing (obvious) changed.........

Hmm my memory was perfect!!!(Very unusual)
I just found a link from NASA. Click here......

"compared to"?????????? I don't understand.......

We can't. The data show this, with a 1% margin of error..........

13.7 billion years old.........

Sumerian: If you refuse my proposal, give me an alternative how I should behave.

Just continue playing.............Just simple as that
Now people know it so they would know in the future too! What have been done, it's history. And if someone wanted to win this tournament, he could, without caring about Smirf's existence. Smirf is not an invicible opponent.

Fencer is the master of this site and since he hasn't expressed any disagreement then everything for now are OK. In the future i'm sure he will create some better "user agreement" and everything will be OK again.........

harley:
Sumerian is using one he has wrote himself, therefore can only be as good as his own play. (I guess!)

Your guess is COMPLETELY wrong! One can write a very good program, that would even be at the top of it's area, without being himself(or herself) even a little good at this area.......
Todays top Chess programs have a strenth of FIDE ELO= 2700 or more, but all of their programmers have even less than 2000 ELO or they do not have any ELO at all. Exceptions exist of course but there are VERY few and are not above 2400 ELO..........


As for the message to Sumerian, i completely disagree to the whole thing. So although i haven't used any program, as i'm 100% sure that there is not even a 0.00000000001% probability that all the 56 participants will send him a message and as i completely disagree to the message procedure, i will not send him any message.

Obvioulsy we (mainly I) have to stop discussing it here..... So since Fencer agrees with the situation (i'm not not 100% sure of this of course--but seing no obvious disagreement i can assume this) i suggest to stop arguing here......
Now everyone have learnt that he is using Smirf so.................

"Hundreds of players are much better than one, for testing........"
MEANS:
Having AS AN OPTION for testing hundreds of players instead of one is better.........
AND NOT:
He played with hundreds of players for testing.....

I just said that, the hundreds of testers as a reason for didn't invite Ed Trice to testgames (Tha Andersp said), was mine and not his, so we couldn't accuse him for " arrogance of assuming the right to deceive "Hundreds" of players to test his computer".........

The behaviour of Sumerian is unacceptable, the arrogance of assuming the right to deceive "Hundreds" of players to test his computer is a clear betrayal of the trust required by a community such as BrainKing

These are not his opinions but mine........

Stevie: I was a newcomer then (at Brainking) and that was at Reversi 8x8 only and i used my own program to play. As i thought that other people use programs too for Reversi 8x8, i used it to see which is stronger (right now it outplays WZebra with a 80%) and to see how i can improve it, as it is a program that plays differenly than others (It's purpose is to solve Reversi 8x8 and plays according to some general rules i found-I didn't manage to do solve it yet).

And i was not keeping it a secret, as i immediately told you after our game when you asked.
I could just say that it was me who was playing, if i wanted to cheat..........

I had to add that the improvement my program gained from playing some games here(as i played many without it by myself) is zero, as the opponents were not computers as i originally thought but humans and humans can't play good this game........

I can give a possible answer: Hundreds of players are much better than one, for testing........

And understanding is important too....... But i don't see many, that understand the purpose Reinhard had using Smirf here.........

I say that Sumerian was sincere enough saying that he will be using his own program for playing and people critisizing him for doing that. I don't find this logical..........Just answer one question: Would have been better if he didn't say this? (I know the answer: Here computers are not allowed.......)

But he wanted to test his engine so he violated the rules. I don't have any problem with that. Obviously others have........

I suggest to Sumerian to remove the sentence in his profile saying he uses a program.
Then nobody could say anything at all and all
these non-logical in my opinion voices would stop! As nobody could prove that he will be playing with a computer........
Do you see now why Sumerian is in fact too sincere to be treated in this way............?

EdTrice:

Thetype of game does not matter: chess, checkers, Gothic Chess. A good player with the proper motivation using this technique will never be defeated by a computer, and he can also beat a computer in this fashion.

If you mean ONLY correspondence games then:

At Chess: a good player with the proper motivation can beat the computer (meaning the top one's) rather enough times, can be beaten enough times and draws will occur most of the times.......

At Gothic Chess: a good player with the proper motivation can beat the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V) most of the time, can be beaten rather seldom and can draw few times.........

At Checkers: i have no idea about Checkers...........

If you mean long(classic) time controls games then:

At Chess: ONLY the top players in the world can beat the computer (meaning the top one's). And i mean not in a single game out of 10, but in a match of 8 and more. Right noe the battle is equal .

At Gothic Chess: a good Chess player can beat with great difficulty the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V).

If you mean short or blitz time controls games then:

At Chess: NOBODY in the galaxy can beat the computer (meaning the top one's and not only). It's already difficult to take just one game out of 8 or more, so no thinking about winning..........

At Gothic Chess: a good Chess player can't beat the computer (meaning the top one's= G.V). He can take some games or draws but beating it is too tough.......!


At fast time controls, like game in 10 mins or faster, Vortex kills me. At time controls slower than game in 2 hours, there is no program that can win against ANY strong willed player of skill.

Do you mean of course Gothic Chess program and not Chess program.......


This has been well documented in the chess playing community for decades. Strong correspondence players still outperform computers.

The word still is critical. It shows that the gap is closing.......In my opinion we may be to the point that computers are starting to surpass us at correspondence also. Perhaps not yet, but it's close.....

Immortality is important too, but we can't achieve it. So we should not care ot think about it..........

Same here: as nobody can't prove or prevent cheating, it's not important.........

Sumerian clearly states he is using a computer! He is sincere enough to do it. He could use one without saying nothing. But he didn't do that. And instead of giving him some credit for it we criticize him for admitting it.....? Not very logical...............It would be better if he hasn't accepted it?

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Redsales:
But I just wanted you to know that was one reason I was not interested in entering the tournament, because I did not come here to play machines. Good luck, I will be interested to see if you win.

Relax. Smirf is not so invincible right now, so you should not feel so scared about playing against it. It's beatable, believe me. Of course this is not the point you will clearly say! The point is you just want to play against humans and not machines. But the question is why.........? Why not playing against a beta engine and helping his creator to improve it? Why not enjoying the game the same......? I don't see any reason for this.
And Sumerian clearly states that he is using Smirf! It's not a secret...... He could use it without refering that he does but NO. He was very sincere and he faces that reaction from us.........?!?!?

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Sumeriam:
It seems to play more like a human being, and my opponents hardly were able to distinguish whether I or Smirf have been playing.

In our 3 games we played i could clearly distinguish that i played with a computer engine.

In our first game with Smirf as white, Smirf played rather good the opening (except 7.Bg2) so i can guess that either i'm facing a program or a good human. But after the 18.Rh1? i would easy remove the good human so i would be sure that i was playing Smirf. And after my Nxc4! i would be sure, as the opponent hasn't lost his way in the tactic area and not only this but played the best moves. One strange thing though, was that although the position was lost you can't expect from a computer to play Rxg3 giving me a mate............

In our second game with Smirf as black, it would indeed be very difficult to decide if i was facing a computer. The 12...Bg7! was a nice tactical move that only gives an indication. But the bad 17...Bxi3? showing it doesn't understand the position and that it is actually lost after this (in fact this is very difficult for a computer to see that it's losing as my attack is far away from its horizon), gives an even better indication of a computer. And since before being mated, played the best possible defence (38...Re8, 39...Nd6) i could assume that i play against a computer..........

And in our third game here, after my anti-comp 9.Ah2(since i knew that i'm playing a computer) the 9...Bxj2? shows that my opponent is either a materialistic computer or a not so good human........ But after 9...Bxj2? my opponent played the best moves to avoid the inevitable. So the option of a not so strong human is not true. In fact it played the best moves possible presing my King too much, but the position was lost anyway as i had a material advantage after 9...Bxj2? and my defence proved too strong. So i was playing against a computer.

So with just 3 games i would 100% be sure, that i was playing with a computer. If from the last time we played Smirf has changed so much then the above will not happen again......

But what is the amazing thing, is that a 48 KiB program is able to play all these kind of different variants (among them Chess and Gothic Chess) and it's able to make people frightened about its playing strength. I would like to express my huge admiration for your accomplishment: SMIRF! I'm thrilled by the fact that such a small code can do so much............

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Reza I am here mostly to just have fun.

Don't you think that the above and the discussion about Smirf you started are
contradictory........?

Pitty Mr. Trice isn't here to tell us why he has agreed to let Sumerian play in the tourny. In fact since he is the one who wants to spend the $500, it's OK if he wants to give it to Sumerian

Sumerian is not the winner. He is a participant and he may win or he may not win. And why Ed Trice should not have accepted Sumerian.......? Because he is using a computer? So what....? Since you can't clearly prove that others don't use one, you can't say anything against Sumerian.............And in fact he refers that he is using one in his profile so it's not a secret at all! And again what you prefer? Player-X that he admits he uses a program or player-X that he uses a computer but he don't admits it..........? And the most important thing is that he doen't use smirf in order to have an astonishing BKR or no loses etc... but to experiment with it..............

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Czuch Chuckers
I think Ed Trice only put up that prize because he knows his cheating machine is better than anyone elses. He doesnt plan on paying that prize to anyone but himself.

Just to let you know(you know it right now), Ed Trice isn't participating in this tournament.........So before posting anything without knowing for sure, just put the word "i think" or just ask.........! (Don't feel offended by my notes.....)

I'm thinking of taking part on Guinness records for that has just happened to me. I've succeeded playing a record-breaking game at Hyper Backgammon.
In this position my opponent rolled the amazing 33 and then i rolled the DAMN amazing 66!!!!!!

Is this a major achievement or what..........? Can anyone show me a better one........?
Sorry for the OT but i think Fencer has to re-evaluate the way dice is treating against me

And why is that? I mean FRC != Corner Chess. It should go to the Other Chess Variants...........

When i am to a Fischer Random Chess game and click the "discuss", it takes me to the Corner Chess discussion board?!?!

Hmmm, interesting link! I was not aware of it......Its position is well hidden
Now i understand the interview matter.........

Who is Bry and why you will take an interview from him....? Is he, any popular person behind the "Bry"....???(Michael Jordan perhaps.
I don't understand the whole interview thing?!?!

Well since last time nobody succedded, i will increase the prize..... So here is your chance to win a one year membership here, with a lot of effort of course........

The first one who will post at
Gothic Chess discussion board and only there, the correct answers to the above 4 questions, will win a 1 year Rook membership...........

The 4 questions are here.


***If there are no answers or any correct one until 10/02/2005, there will be no winner.......
***If someone posts more than 1 answer, then the accepted one, will be ONLY his last one. That means even if someone posts a correct answer before everyone, but posts another one later, not correct this time, he would not win as the accepted answer will be the last one. Even if anyone else hasn't answered correctly.......
***In the extremely rare case when there will be 2 or more correct answers at the exactly same time, the winner will be the one whose post will appear first at the Gothic Chess discussion board.
***I will post if there is a winner or not at 10/02/2005.

What happened to the Brainking? I couldn't connect for the last half hour but now it seems OK.
Is it only me or it was a problem......?

Fencer is generous with such low prices for the memberships...........

Sorry, but nobody as i can see has solved both 3 problems. So there is no winner........
Here are the solutions.

Tomorrow i will post a new one with 1 year prize this time........

I don't know about speed(well i think it's rather quick), but Brainking's graphics and the whole environment, are the best in our galaxy!!!!

That means if i press "remove" and the box leave, when there are new news will appear again there..........?

If i remove the green box with the Server News from main page, how i can bring it back........?

Something on topic......

And if you set a BKR between 1800 to 2000 only these people having this, would see your games. Nobody else. It's not like i thought at first, that all people could see but only these with 1800-2000 would be able to play........

Walter do you recognise the game? It's one of your extinction games........Against Oliotavio i think.......Only you failed to find the forced win! You won though........

All the Maharajah's are not unique of course. A Maharajah is the same of course with another Maharajah.
So the following is not true:"
"A position that has a Maharajah-1 on a1 and a Maharajah-2 on a2 is different from the position that has the Maharajah-2 on a1 and the Maharajah-1 on a2."
Both positions are the same............

As for the Extinction, Redsales after Bb5+ there is the O-O-O! which saves the day(remember you can castle at Extinction when you are in check!).
As for the 1.e5 Ng8 2.b4 Qb6 3.Be3 Bc5? 4.Bxc5 Walter, there is the 3...c5! that leads to no win in less 3 moves.........
And there is no win in less than 6 moves for white.

The first one who will post here at
BrainKing.com discussion board and only here, the correct answers to the above 3 questions, will win a 6 Month Rook membership............

The 3 questions are here.


***If there are no answers or any correct one until the same day next week, there will be no winner.......
***In the extremely rare case when there will be 2 or more correct answers at the exactly same time, the winner will be the one whose post will appear first at the BrainKing.com discussion board.

The ratings SHOULD refresh immediatelly after a finished game. If this didn't happen there must be a problem..........I'm sure it will be fixed if there is any.....
Or there isn't any problem and this is how the system works. It may need 3-4 hours or even 1 day to refresh. Fencer.....?
But you don't have to worry, the rating will be refreshed!

Ok, Jason. But you say: after you make a move, then the time will change. I don't think you support that if i don't make a move then the time WILL NOT change? Do you sya that?
Or with other words what is your opinion about: "if i don't play a move then the time will not change........."?

BIG BAD WOLF put it perfectly, please Jason clarify to be sure............

Hmmm OK thanks, but why this change.......? I can't fully trust it now although i know it will do its job.
I am one of them who support "If i don't see it, i don't believe it!"

I have one question about Vacation days: I add 1,2,3......it doesn't matter how many, BUT the time until the game's expiration doesn't change (Actually it doesn't seem to change -- it doesn't appear at main page timings).

For example the closest game now to expire is at 16 hours. And the second at 1 days and 5 hours. When i add one vacation day (i have activated the auto vacation if this matters) the main page times doesn't change at all. The closest game to expire remains at 16 hours and the second at 1 days and 5 hours.
While it should be for the closest game to expire at 1 day and 16 hours and for the second at 2 days and 5 hours.

Why this is not happening............? Is it normal...........? Does anything to do with auto vacation...........?

I just thing that this is a bad idea! Just my humble opinion.........

<55ul> and <55li> create combined a list(without 55).....
For example:
<55ul>
<55li>Statement 1 of the list
<55li>Statement 2 of the list
<55li>Statement 3 of the list
</55ul>
Gives...........:

• Statement 1 of the list
  
• Statement 2 of the list
  
• Statement 3 of the list
  

Normally </li> at the end of each statement should be accepted but here it works incorrectly............

What kind of HTML commands Brainking supports....? I know about supporting <5b>,<5A HREF>,<5i>, but i don't see it supports <pre>,<font color>,..etc.
So where i can find a list about ALL the HTML commands Brainking supports?

I played before 1 hour a move in one game while i had around 19 hours to play it, i played the move and logged off, but know i have entrered again the move hasn't been played and it said i have still 17 hours to play it.........I'm 100% sure i played the move so what happened...........?

You know of course that if this game has an enigmatic form, THEN the same game, with the exception of announcing any players play(how many points every player played) at the end of the turn, will create a totally different game that its enigmatic nature will be much higher and it will be based more on luck.
Now by knowing how much points every player has in any move, some mathematics can be applied to ensure in some cases "perfect play".

The "" at the perfect play have to be put, since there is no perfect play when randomness comes to play....This game is not a perfect-information-game, so there is no perfect play in general.

Well i don't mean that. I know that what you are saying will happen, i just mean until a move will end (for example move 4), noone can't see what other players play AT THIS move. Of course the validity of this is obvious, but i want to be sure.......

Of course noone will know what the player has played, right? He would just choose a number in each round........! I assume that no 7 days per move would happen as then the play will be slow, a 2 days per move is ideal for me. But it's your choice..........

Oh, OK:-) I'm just translating everything with it's absolute meaning...........

No the rules are clear! I don't really know why you don't understand it...........??? I have just read it for the first time and i found it fun and easy to play...........

Just one comment. There is a rule that says: 4) If a player have no points left, he must make the next move with 0 points and it is very unlikely he will stay on the pondside.
How such a player stay in the game? I see the probability for that = 0. So (s)he would never stay in the game so what's the purpose of participating in the next move with 0 points?
Please explain where i am wrong......?

One question:
Do you find it legal and moral to help/support a member of the same team in a tournament, at his games in THIS tournament? What i mean is that i would like the cooperation between members of the same team not to be only that they "share" the wins-draws-loses of the other members, but to be on a higher level of total cooperation by advising and suggesting some ideas or even moves.
Would this be an "illegal thing" or it is acceptable......?