BrainKing - Forums de discussion (Camelot)

Sujet: Camelot Video

I've created an introductory/instructional video for Camelot, and uploaded it to YouTube. Feel free to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIdrAVfqAt0

26. Août 2013, 09:18:50

Sujet: Camelot World Championship

Just a reminder to all of you who wish to participate in the upcoming Camelot World Championship Tournament. You must be a member of the World Camelot Federation (membership is free--all it takes is an email to michael@worldcamelotfederation.com) in order to get an invitation to play in the tournament.

4. Août 2012, 23:30:47

Sujet: Camelot Bug

modifié par MrWCF (4. Août 2012, 23:31:50)

MrWCF:

Another bug in the BrainKing implementation of Camelot has been discovered. That makes two known implementation bugs:

1. Jump possible, therefore capture mandatory. Knight that has Knight's Charge available is allowed to just Canter. ILLEGAL MOVE.

2. Piece that jumps into opponent's Castle is allowed to keep jumping out of Castle. ILLEGAL MOVE.

20. Juillet 2011, 21:27:31

Sujet: Re: Game record

DragonKing:

One place is:

http://www.worldcamelotfederation.com/2008_WC_Games.htm

2. Juin 2011, 01:15:38

DragonKing

Sujet: Game record

Where can I go to get a game score to play over some games?

21. Mars 2010, 19:07:09

Sujet: Re: Quiz

AbigailII: I believe Fencer is well aware of the bugs and he intends to fix them eventually, but what bugs me is that the fixing of these bugs seems to be nowhere near the top of his priorities here at BK. We can read about a new logo, hidden login, dynamic home page, fixed or variable width, etc., but the most important feature of a game site, i.e. the games, do not work properly.

21. Mars 2010, 18:29:27

Sujet: Re: Quiz

Pedro Martínez: all these games have major problems in the implementation of the rules and there are no signs of them being fixed anytime soon.

That seems to be on par for Brainking. If a new game has been added, there's a short period in which bugs may get fixed. Afterwards, it's always declared as "this is just the way we play this game on this site".

21. Mars 2010, 18:26:44

Sujet: Re: Quiz

MTC: In Russian Checkers, it is not mandatory to make the longest possible jump.

Currently, Wikipedia writes Jumping is mandatory and cannot be passed up to make a non-jumping move, nor can fewer than the maximum jumps possible be taken in a multiple-jump move.. Or course, an article on Wikipedia isn't more than the opinion of the last person editing it....

21. Mars 2010, 14:42:47

Sujet: Re: Quiz

MTC:
Interesting thread, but as mentioned, it should be moved to either the Checkers Board or the Bugs Board.

21. Mars 2010, 08:35:02

MTC

Sujet: Re: Quiz

Pedro Martínez: In fact, both moves were captures, the player did jump; so he is still within the rules as both you and I state them.

21. Mars 2010, 08:23:50

Sujet: Re: Quiz

MTC: I believe you were confused by the following line of the rules of Russian Checkers:
“Unlike International Checkers, it is not mandatory to make the longest possible jump.”
This line refers to a situation when a player has two or more options to jump, of which at least one is a multiple-piece jump. In International Checkers, it is mandatory to choose the jump which leads to the maximum possible amount of captures. In Russian Checkers, it is possible to choose the jump with the fewest amount of captures, however a player cannot choose NOT to jump, as it happened in the game I posted. The point is, that the definition of what is a jump and what is not, is the same as in International Checkers.

21. Mars 2010, 08:03:36

MTC

Sujet: Re: Quiz

Pedro Martínez: Having re-read the rules of Russian Checkers, I just can’t see what was wrong with either of those moves. In Russian Checkers, it is not mandatory to make the longest possible jump. I also can’t see any other reason you would think those moves illegal.

(no, this does not belong in the Camelot forum, but I still thought it necessary to reply to this apparent misunderstanding)

20. Mars 2010, 20:59:23

Sujet: Re: Quiz

modifié par Pedro Martínez (20. Mars 2010, 21:00:40)

MrWCF: This site has become one big bug. Camelot, Cam, Backgammon, Espionage, Russian Checkers, Turkish Checkers, Dameo, … all these games have major problems in the implementation of the rules and there are no signs of them being fixed anytime soon.
Check the last two moves of the Black in this game, for example, it's just ridiculous:
Russian Checkers (Priidik vs. Edem das Seine)

20. Mars 2010, 08:26:08

Sujet: Re: Quiz

MrWCF:

I notice that in the case of both illegal moves, the piece moving was a Knight that had a possible capture via a Knight's Charge. Hmmm.....

9. Mars 2010, 00:18:20

Sujet: Re: Quiz

Pedro Martínez:

9....C11-E13 and 12.D7-C7 are both illegal moves since, in both cases, a capture was mandatory. What gives???

8. Mars 2010, 02:19:30

Sujet: Quiz

Will you discover two “exceptional” moves in this game?
Camelot (Viсtoria vs. Pedro Martínez)

1. Décembre 2009, 13:25:06

Sujet: Re: An Interesting Cam Ending

modifié par MrWCF (1. Décembre 2009, 13:36:01)

MTC:

Good question!!

However, after Black moves 1....F3-G4, White wins with 2.D5-C4! Now, if 2......G4-F3, then 3.E4-D3. Next, if 3....F3-E2, then 4.C4-B3! E2xC4, 5.B3xD5 wins. (Other retreating Black second moves allow White to defend his Castle with one piece while advancing toward Black's Castle with the other piece, as might have happened in the game.)

By the way, I think that if any Cam position is drawn, it will probably entail an ending with two pieces vs. two pieces. That is the most common type of drawn ending in Camelot, though I probably shouldn't say "common" since with accurate play, almost all Camelot endgame positions are not drawn.

1. Décembre 2009, 08:15:09

MTC

Sujet: Re: An Interesting Cam Ending

MrWCF: You said that you believe no Cam position is drawn. However, I have come across a position I believe to be drawn:

Cam (MTC vs. DarwinKoala)

In this position, if black’s one remaining piece always moves between F3 and G4, then white has no choice but to keep forming this position, to stop black winning. I can see no way for white to avoid that.
For black, making any other move seems to result in a forced win for white (and that is what happened in this game).
So I’m under the impression that with perfect play from both sides, this position will keep repeating and the game is therefore drawn. Am I wrong?

27. Novembre 2009, 07:37:39

Sujet: Re: follow-up

Pioneer54:

The mandatory capture if a Knight Canters into a Jumping position has been in the rules since 1930. I think the idea was (and is) that if a Knight Canters next to an enemy piece that can be jumped, it has reached, in effect, the same position as one where there is an available Jump at the start of a turn, that is, a situation where a capture is mandatory.

I think that it's a good rule, and seems to me to be consistent with the overall conceptual structure of the game.

As a practical matter, it's rare for a player to Canter a Knight into position to Jump, and then be better off if he weren't forced to Jump. But it is obviously possible.

Good question.

Michael Nolan

27. Novembre 2009, 04:34:16

Pioneer54

Sujet: follow-up

Question: It’s my move, and I don’t have any possible Jumps. While Cantering one of my Knights, I’ve reached a square where it’s possible to Jump an enemy piece. Must I do so?

Answer: Yes. The Canter of your Knight has now become a Knight’s Charge, so you must make a capturing move, either immediately, or later in this move.

This is from the WCF rules. The implication seems clear, but I wonder if it could have been better explained. I am not quite clear on just why a charge suddenly becomes a mandatory move.

27. Novembre 2009, 02:30:56

Pioneer54

Sujet: rules inquiry

Camelot (Pioneer54 vs. skinny18)

This game is ongoing, but well beyond the position linked here. I tried to move 9.Ni7-i9, but the system would not allow me to stop and submit the move from that point. Why? I had no jump, so any piece could have been moved, and cantering is supposedly optional.

Is this a site bug, rule ambiguity, or something else I missed?

24. Août 2009, 06:38:54

Sujet: Camelot Tournament

Camelot tournament open to all players rated 1600 or higher, provisional or established. Single elimination for four players.

Camelot 1600+ Elimination

20. Juin 2009, 23:15:55

Sujet: Re:

Undertaker.:

Well, I don't know about my being a great Camelot player--I think a better description would be just pretty good. But Dan may well be a genius Camelot player--he seems, at least for me, to be impossible to beat.

20. Juin 2009, 13:05:16

Undertaker.

Sujet: Re:

MrWCF: If you're a great player of Camelot game, so Dan Troyka must be a genius. :) It would be interesting if he join to BrainKing as player. Some time ago, i read something about breakthrough game and Dan Troyka. I think he plays very well this game, too...

19. Juin 2009, 07:24:07

The 2008-2009 WCF Camelot World Championship Tournament that began on July 20, 2008, has been decided. Dan Troyka of Saline, Michigan, USA, has retained his title of WCF Camelot World Champion.

The original eight challengers for the crown were divided into two four-man round robin candidates groups. Each group member played a best-two-out-of-three-game match against each of the other three members of his group. The two group winners, Michael Nolan and Jerry LaSala, played off in a best-three-out-of-five-game Candidates Final Match. Mr. Nolan won the contest, giving him the right to challenge Mr. Troyka, the reigning World Champion, in a best-four-out-of-seven-game match for the Championship. That match began on February 7, 2009, in Troy, Michigan, USA. A second session was held on March 8, and a third and final session on May 31. The time limit for all games was set at 40 moves in 2.5 hours. After sixteen total hours of play, the match was won by Mr. Troyka by a score of 4-1/2 to 1-1/2 (four wins, one loss, one draw), thus he retains his title of WCF Camelot World Champion.

Links to annotated scores of all six games of the World Championship Match in the form of Camelot "movies" (showing the position after every move) are available at http://www.worldcamelotfederation.com/2008_WC_Games.htm.

17. Juin 2009, 14:33:22

modifié par MrWCF (17. Juin 2009, 14:47:04)

I want to let all BrainKing users know that they are entitled to a free membership in the World Camelot Federation.

The WCF is an international non-profit organization that is dedicated to the preservation, popularization, and play of Camelot, one of the finest abstract strategy board games ever invented.

As most of you probably know, both Camelot and its variant Cam are played on BrainKing.

To receive a free WCF membership, please contact me at michael@worldcamelotfederation.com .

There are currently 197 WCF members, spread throughout 14 different countries. The organization is an informal network of individuals interested in any and all aspects of the game and its variants: Cam, Camette, Chivalry, Grand Camelot, and Grand Cam.

Membership comes with no requirement on your part. Membership entitles you to a couple of things. You will receive an occasional informational email from me regarding subjects like Camelot computer programs, rules questions, editions of sets, legal issues, games, problems, etc.

Additionally, you will automatically receive an invitation to play in the next WCF Camelot World Championship (email) Tournament. One just concluded two weeks ago.

I hope you take advantage of this chance to learn more about Camelot.

Please visit the WCF website at http://www.worldcamelotfederation.com .

Thanks.

Respectfully,
Michael Nolan (MrWCF on BrainKing)
President & Founder, World Camelot Federation

2. Juin 2009, 23:20:46

Sujet: Re: Moving knights out of enemy castles

Ceiter:

That's a bug. Your Knight cannot move out of your opponent's Castle. Your only legal move is the capture of your opponent's Man with your Man.

2. Juin 2009, 21:59:47

Ceiter

Sujet: Moving knights out of enemy castles

I was just looking at a game of mine where I have a knight in my opponent's castle. I was under the impression that once you move into your opponent's castle, you can never move out, but in this case BrainKing will let me move out.

I need to capture on this turn, and I can either capture one piece with a pawn, or two pieces by making a knight's chage out of the castle.

Is this a bug, or is it legal?

Game is here: Camelot (Ceiter vs. tenuki)

I'm not moving until I know the move is legit.

27. Mai 2009, 07:23:02

Sujet: Exhibition Games

modifié par MrWCF (27. Mai 2009, 17:09:38)

Within the next week or so, I will be playing a few exhibition games of Camelot against CHAXX, the World Champion Camelot computer program, on this site ( Camelot (Chaxx vs. MrWCF) ). I suspect that my current unbeaten BrainKing Camelot record will quickly suffer extensive damage.

21. Février 2009, 23:36:14

Styleone

Sujet: Chivalry

hello,
What about the variant Chivalry? I would be very happy we can play it here too.

14. Février 2009, 23:45:34

Sujet: Re: Camette

joshi tm: "Ultra-weak" means it's known what the result of the game will be (or cannot be) given perfect play by both players. PahTum for instance is ultra-weak solved in the sense that the second player cannot win (strategy stealing argument). But for a game to be solved ultra-weakly, you can prove the result, but you do not have to have a method reaching that result. Weakly solved means that you have a method for one player to force a win (or draw) from the starting position. Strongly solved means that you from any position what the result will be, and how to archieve that result with perfect play from both sides. Chess is partially strongly solved for up to 6 or 7 pieces (that is, for any legal chess position with at most 6 (or 7) pieces, optimal play for both sides is known)

14. Février 2009, 22:54:46

Sujet: Re: Camette

modifié par joshi tm (14. Février 2009, 22:56:40)

MrWCF: I read about the checkers game indeed it was weakly solved. I study maths, pity I did not learn anything about interesting Game Theories. What does the solving levels mean? By what perfect play, the games always draw?

Edit: I see the game board has lots more sides, piece connot be captured that easy. Interesting...

14. Février 2009, 19:51:26

Sujet: Re: Camette

joshi tm: Camette has not been solved at any of the three possible levels (ultra-weak, weak, or strong). However, in order for that to be true, White must choose one of the 10 opening moves (out of a possible 24) that do not result in forced loss. Speaking of Checkers and Chess, by the way, as you may know, Checkers was weakly solved in 2007: it's a draw.

14. Février 2009, 13:43:07

Sujet: Re: Camette

MrWCF: Is it a solved game then? Or is it a "not so easily solved game" just like Checkers and Chess?

14. Février 2009, 12:21:10

Sujet: Camette

joshi tm:Thanks for your comments, joshi. When I invented the Camelot variant of Camette, I never seriously expected it to avoid being "solved" for too long a period of time. It appears, though, that 10 of the 22 possible first moves for White actually result in an equal battle--I was pleasently surprised!

14. Février 2009, 11:16:51

I like Camelot. Although you have to be alert, for else a foul move often counts as 7 captured pieces. I think this hyper Camelot version should be added too ;)

http://www.worldcamelotfederation.com/Camette_Rules.htm

22. Janvier 2009, 08:06:46

Sujet: A Challenging Game, Annotated

modifié par MrWCF (22. Janvier 2009, 08:32:27)

I thought that I would annotate my game just completed against skinny18. It was the most difficult Camelot game I've had so far on BrainKing. Camelot (MrWCF vs. skinny18)

White: MrWCF
Black: skinny18
16 January 2009

1.E6-G8 G11-G9
2.F6-H8 H11-H9
3.D6-F8 J11-H11
4.E7-C7? (The beginning of an unsound combination by White that leads to a loss of a Man.)
4....G9XE7
5.H6-F6 E7XG5
6.I7-G9XG11XI9XG9 H11-H10
7.G6XG4 H10XF8XH6
8.H7XH5 (White is up the one Man that he envisioned, but not for long.)
8....F11-F9! (When White played 4.E7-C7, he was completely blind to this excellent move by his opponent. Threatened are both 9....F9xH7xJ5xJ7 and 9....C11-E9-G9xI7xI5xG5xG3)
9.J6-I5 F9XH7XH9 (Now White is a piece down.)
10.F7-E7 I11-I9-G9
11.D7-D6 I10-H10
12.H5-J7 G9-G8
13.G4-H5 E11-E9
14.J7-I8 H9XJ7
15.I6XK8 G8-H9
16.K8-L9 (Hoping to divert some Black pieces to the task of stopping this White end-around in the hope of evening up the forces in the center.)
16....H9-I10 (Taking the bait. In Camelot, allowing one enemy piece to get around your forces and move toward your Castle is rarely dangerous. On the contrary, it reduces the enemy's presence in the tactics-rich center by a piece.)
17.H5-H6 C11-E11-G9
18.E7-F7 G9-I11
19.C7-D7 D11-D9
20.L9-L10 H10-H11
21.L10-L11 I10-I12
22.I5-I6 I12-J13
23.H6-H7 E9-G11
24.I6-G8-E6 D9-D11
25.C6-C7 I11-I12
26.H7-G7 J13-K12
27.L11XJ13 I12XK14 (Black has stopped the White end-around, but at what cost.)
28.G7-E7 K14-J13 (Correctly attempting to get the Knight back into play. Regardless of slightly questionable strategic planning, Black has played a tactically perfect game up to this point.)
29.D6-D8 D10-E9? (Finally, White gets a break. This move loses material. 29....D10-E11 would have maintained Black's advantage.)
30.D7-D9! E9XC9 (Best. 30....E10xC8xE8xG6, 31.E6-E8xE10xG10xI12xK14 would have given White a two Knights for two Men advantage.)
31.C7-E9XE11XG9 C9-C8!? (Best was 31....H11-I12!, 32.D8-F6-F8-H10xF12 allowing White only a one Man advantage with plenty of counterplay by Black. In this variation, White might have fallen into the clever trap of 32.E6-E8-C8xC10xE12? G11-G10!, 33.G9xG11 J13-H11xF11xD13 with a probable draw.)
32.D8-F6-F8-H10XH12XF10 (With a one Knight and one Man advantage. Not 32.D8xB8 with only a one Knight advantage. And certainly not 32.E6-G8-G10xI12xK14 C8xE8xE6xG8xG10 with a win for Black.)
32....D11-C10
33.E6-G8 C10-C9
34.E7-D7 C8XE6
35.F7XD5 RESIGNS 1-0
A tough game by my worthy opponent!

17. Janvier 2009, 14:45:09

Thanks. That saves 6 pieces because I thougt it was otherwise.

17. Janvier 2009, 07:16:08

Sujet: Re:

joshi tm: Yes.
If one of your pieces is in position to Jump one of your opponent's pieces, you must make a capture sometime during that move. You can accomplish that mandatory capture either by the Jump, itself, or, if one is available, by a Knight's Charge.

17. Janvier 2009, 06:34:22

If you have to capture with pawns, are you allowed to make a knight's charge instead?

15. Janvier 2009, 13:01:00

Sujet: Re: World Camelot Federation

MrWCF: Thank you for your response. I was thinking that a "world federation" should associate individual national associations and was wondering if there are any throughout the world. I guess that's not the case. Thanks again for making it clear.

15. Janvier 2009, 07:37:11

Sujet: Re: World Camelot Federation

modifié par MrWCF (15. Janvier 2009, 08:24:57)

Pedro Martínez: Thanks for your questions, Pedro.
The WCF uses the word “Federation” as a synonym for “association” or “league.” Ten years ago, when I formed the WCF, I could just as easily have chosen “World Camelot Association.”
The WCF uses the word “World” because the organization is open for free to anyone anywhere in the world. Currently, the WCF has members in twelve different countries. If I can ever manage to publicize the group, my preference would be to have at least one member in every country in the world.

15. Janvier 2009, 06:48:16

Sujet: World Camelot Federation

I have just visited the website of the "World Camelot Federation" and two questions came into my mind: What makes the WCF a "world" federation and what makes it a "federation"?

15. Janvier 2009, 06:40:35

Sujet: Camelot World Championship Match

The WCF Camelot World Championship Match will begin at 10:00 a.m. EST on February 7, 2009, in Troy, Michigan, USA. The best-four-out-of-seven contest will pit the challenger, Michael Nolan, against the current world champion, Dan Troyka. This will be the first over-the-board Camelot World Championship contest in history. The time limit will be 40 moves in 150 minutes. Mr. Troyka has been Camelot world champion since 2003. Mr. Nolan won a series of Candidates Elimination Matches under the auspices of the World Camelot Federation to earn the right to be the challenger.

14. Janvier 2009, 17:10:23

Sujet: Re: An Interesting Cam Ending

AbigailII: Thank you, I'll do that in future messages, and I'll edit the two previous messages. I appreciate your help!

14. Janvier 2009, 11:32:12

Sujet: Re: An Interesting Cam Ending

MrWCF: You might get more response if you make your references to games actual links.

14. Janvier 2009, 08:47:29

Sujet: An Interesting Cam Ending

modifié par MrWCF (14. Janvier 2009, 17:13:57)

Another interesting position, this time at the end of the Cam game between PerGioco and dragonchild (archive #3685011: Cam (dragonchild vs. PerGioco)). The players agreed to a draw. I believe that no Cam position is drawn--one player can always force a win--but that is unproven. Do you think that this game is a draw, or a win for Black? I would like to hear your intended strategy as Black to try for the win.

11. Janvier 2009, 08:52:12

Sujet: Annotated Game

And finally, this game from the 2002-2003 Camelot World Championship Tournament

M. Nolan vs. P. Yearout
2002-2003 WCF Camelot World Championship Tournament
(Annotations by M. Nolan)
1.E6-G8 H11-H9
2.E7-F8 J11-H11
3.H6-H8 H9-I8
4.H8xJ8 (Not 4.H7xJ9 H11-H9xH7xJ7xJ5xH7xF9 or 4.I7xI9 H11-J11-H9xJ9)
....H11-J9xJ7xJ5
5.I7-I5xK5 E11-E9 (Threatening C11-E11-G9xE7xC5xC7xE7xG5)
6.F7-E7 I10-H11 (Threatening H11-F9xF7xH9)
7.G8-F7 C11-E11
8.K5-J6 D11-F9
9.J6-H6 I11-G9
10.I6-G8 F11-D9
11.G8-E8 H11-F11
12.E8xC10E11-C9xC11
13.G6-E8 H10-F12
14.F8xH10 G11xI9 (Not G10xI10 because of E8xG10xE12xG12xG10. Better was F11-H9xH11 with an even game. The text loses a piece)
15.H6-H8xJ10 D10-F8XH6xH8 (This loses outright to the text reply)
16.F6-F8 (All other moves allow equality)
....E9xG7
17.F7xH7xH9 (Now if G10xI8 then E8xG10xE12xG12 or if F11-D9xF7 then H9xF11xD9)
....Resigns 1-0

11. Janvier 2009, 08:50:46

Sujet: Annotated Game

And still another....

Paul Yearout vs. Michael Nolan 1999
(annotations by M. Nolan)
1.E6-E8 H11-F9
2.C6-E6 J11-H11
3.H6-F8 E11-G9
4.G7-E9! F10xD8? (4....F9xD9, 5.E8xC10xC12 D11xB13, 6.I7-G7-E9xE11xC9 G11-E9, 7.E6-E8xE10xG12 H11xF13 is better)
5.F8xF10xF12? (5.J6-H8xF10xH12xJ10! I10xK10, 6.E7xC9xE11xG11xI11xG9xE9xE11 D11xF11, 7.I7-G7-E9-E7-G9xG11xE11 wins)
5...... D10-F10-H8xH6xJ8!
6.D7xD9xF11xH9xJ11? (6.D7-F9xH9xF11xD9xD7 H11-J9-J7xJ5xH7xF5, 7.F6xF4 C11-E11xG13 is better)
6...... H11-H9-F9xD7xF5xH7xJ5xJ7!
7.J11xH11xH9xF9 C11-E11xG13
and Black won in 50 moves 0-1

11. Janvier 2009, 08:49:41