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24. ноември 2011, 20:28:31
Papa Zoom 
"At some point people have forgotten that Atheism is as much a belief system as religions are. Interestingly, it is OK to discriminate atheists. If an atheists comes out and speaks against religion, he will be labelled a bigot. But not so when some preacher speaks against atheists. If I open a Christian school, it is OK. But if I were to open an atheist school that openly promotes atheism, I would probably be burned at the stake."

It seems to me that atheism isn't a system at all but rather a lack of belief or maybe more accurately skeptcism. After all, if there were no belief or knowledge in God, there would be no atheists.

I've never understood why people would want to promote atheism. I understand an atheist's criticism against "religion" but against the teaching of Christianity (notice I said teaching) that makes no sense.

"But what is truth is not a personal assertion?"

That is nonsense. A personal assertion is just that: a claim or opinion being made. It's not true just because you assert it.

"You tell me God exists and he is the truth giver. Why should I believe that? Because you say so? "

No, not because I say or because the Bible says. You have to examine the arguments and determine if there's credibility to them. If you are just going to reject them outright, then there's no point in the discussion.

I tell Christians NEVER to quote the Bible to an atheist. They think I'm nuts. But there's no point in trying to prove the Bible by quoting it. Especially to an atheist. Just because I believe the Bible to be from God doesn't mean I expect you to do the same. There are many rational and logically sound arguments for God's existence (the only place to start IMO) and none are dependent on the Bible. Many atheists reject these arguments because of an a priori commitment to materialism. Many other atheists have been convinced by the arguments.

" As an atheist I assert the following: "a human being killing another human being is wrong". Now, others can chose to believe it or they can ignore it. It is their right as free, thinking human beings. "

Yes that's true, you can assert that. However, is your claim objectively true? That's the crux of the matter. BTW, I would say your claim above is false. It is NOT wrong to kill another human being. It IS wrong to kill another human being without justification. But I claim MY STATEMENT is universally true. It's true for all people in all situations. You can disagree with the statement but you'd be wrong. It's not that I'm right, it's that my statement is objectively true.

"... I have conviction in my beliefs. Without conviction in our own beliefs we would immediately fold to anybody else's beliefs. I believe what I believe not because somebody told me so, or because a book told me so, but because after careful analysis and consideration, I have arrived at my convictions."

Don't assume that Christians only hold convictions because "somebody told them" or "they read it in a book." It's arrogant to think that Christians don't analyze their beliefs and convictions. We do that all the time. How do you think a 35 year old former atheist comes to believe in God? That happens a lot. I know of many former atheists and agnostics that came to believe in God after considering extra-biblical arguments. Atheists don't have a corner on the market of skepticism.

"There are many things that are wrong, and people do them for different reasons."

This is where you lose me. You use the same language as would a Christian when speaking of "things that are wrong." You don't seem to mean that you just don't like the thing but that it is objectively wrong and all people should know it. (if you don't think all people should "know it" then why say it is wrong? Why not just that you don't like it?)

Yes atheists can be moral and are. Yes they recognize when something is actually wrong (apart from opinions) and yes in may ways there is no difference in the behavior of a moral atheist or a moral person of faith.

The question I have asked of you is on what basis do you claim that something is actually wrong. You have not answered this question. You've made no argument for your position. On this question, you have no foundation on which to stand.

When you say something is "wrong" do you simply mean it's not the preferred way or not the accepted way? Or do you mean that it's objectively an immoral action?

When I say something is wrong, I say it's objectively true that it's wrong. It's not just that society says so. It's that the thing (such as killing babies for fun) is actually wrong. Period. Since we both agree that such a thing would be wrong, the question is, who has the best explanation as to why this is so? The atheist position falls far short of answering the question while the theist's position is strong.

24. ноември 2011, 20:39:46
The Col 
Относно: Re:
Artful Dodger: re:"I have a great book, I'll look up the title later, where the author argues the existence of God based on mathematical truths. I don't understand the book fully but that is a topic that deserves exploration. I'm not doing the premise of the book justice so I'll dig it up and you can read some reviews etc if that interests you.

Not being a huge fan of the deeper math concepts (because it's not a skill I possess) I still know enough to be fascinated with just how precise math can work and solve deep mysteries. I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"

So you're skeptical of science, unless it fits your beliefs

24. ноември 2011, 20:51:51
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re:
The Col: Yeah, that's what I said.

All scientists are skeptics. They ALL say, "prove it." So I'm in good company.

I don't believe in a young earth because I think the science speaks otherwise.

So much for your patently false statement. Now you can go back to being quiet.

24. ноември 2011, 21:11:36
The Col 
Относно: Re:
Artful Dodger: ". Now you can go back to being quiet"

If by quiet, you mean not wasting my time banging my head on this board trying to counter your republican talking points.I will gladly

24. ноември 2011, 23:35:28
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re:
The Col: Good cya then

24. ноември 2011, 21:29:25
Mort 
Относно: Re: I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"
Artful Dodger: You are confusing maths and physics.

We developed maths as a common language to be able to count, predict the seasons (as in the early days) .... and then more recently to describe the physics. We did not invent the physics, they are something set at the time of this particular universe.

24. ноември 2011, 23:36:18
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re: I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"
(V): I couldn't agree more. You're making my argument for me.

25. ноември 2011, 14:16:44
Mort 
Относно: Re: I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"
Artful Dodger: Yet... there is no evidence at the moment that the laws of physics as they apply in this universe are a constant throughout all time and space. The evidence seems to support that this is one of billions of universes amongst myriads of dimensions.

So, how can this guy use maths to prove there is a God, when so much is still theoretical?

A link would be nice!!

25. ноември 2011, 18:43:46
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re: I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"
(V): Just a small correction. Argues the existence of God and proves the existence are two very different things. No one can "prove" God exists IMO.

26. ноември 2011, 04:08:14
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re: I don't for a minute think we as a human species invented math but only that we developed a language (mathematical equations) to understand what already existed"
(V): I found the book. I'll look for a link ;)

26. ноември 2011, 17:40:40
Mort 
Относно: Re: Marvin Bittinger
Artful Dodger: He's not exactly using high level maths is he from what I saw in the Amazon preview...

... "Faith = (mind) + (heart) + (will)

imho ... he's just getting his bit of the Christianity gravy train than anything else. I can make similar easily enough.

God's faith = XY x 10^Z

Get him to answer that one ;)

26. ноември 2011, 17:50:40
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re: Marvin Bittinger
(V): Good. That was quick. A few minutes looking at a very short preview and you can come to a full conclusion. Never mind that you haven't read his book or considered his ideas in any deep way. I would have expected as much.

So that ends that@!

26. ноември 2011, 17:57:22
Mort 
Относно: Re: Marvin Bittinger
Artful Dodger: True.. I've not read it all seeing as I've not bought it. But as you've said.

>>"Not being a huge fan of the deeper math concepts (because it's not a skill I possess) I still know enough to be fascinated with just how precise math can work and solve deep mysteries."<<>>"I don't understand the book fully"<<

........... so>>"and you can come to a full conclusion. Never mind that you haven't read his book or considered his ideas in any deep way."<<

I don't need to. I have no need to read a book to prove it's ok to believe in God.

26. ноември 2011, 18:00:17
Papa Zoom 
Относно: Re: Marvin Bittinger
(V): Well that's good then. Case closed.

26. ноември 2011, 18:04:37
Mort 
Относно: Re: Marvin Bittinger
Artful Dodger: Hey.. I'm from England. We've had our time of Christianity being "it" and "untouchable"... what a mess that led us into!! lmao

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