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 Go

Discuss about the game of Go or find new opponents.

Beginners:
This TUTORIAL will help you to learn the rules & basics.

More information about Go: senseis library
There is a fellowship dedicated to the game of Go.


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6. juli 2006, 23:34:05
hexkid 
Ämne: Re: Can somebody help the Go to stay alive on BrainKing ?
Ändrat av hexkid (6. juli 2006, 23:37:28)
volant: This problem could be solved, if playing a stone was mandatory after a decline of dead stones. A game could then go like this:
137 ...  pass
138 pass D
139 - h7 (no pass!)
140 pass pass
141 D -
142 h9 pass
143 pass ...

This, at least, avoids repetition of the same position for every dead stone marking phase and gives a chance for both players to mark stones dead.

The referees thing would be nice too ... I volunteer

6. juli 2006, 21:10:33
jurek 
Ämne: Re: Can somebody help the Go to stay alive on BrainKing ?
volant: If he could have, he would have. Marking dead stones is a very hard thing for a computer to do and even the best go counting algorithms aren't perfect. In the two games listed, there aren't any dead stones (and in the second one, Gabby should have won, had she passed on move 34 and marked the 4 stones at B8 dead).

I think one or more referees would be a good thing for Go here, given the scoring issues that some games end up having, like the two Marfitalu listed.

6. juli 2006, 21:04:56
Chimera 
Ämne: Re: Can somebody help the Go to stay alive on BrainKing ?
Marfitalu: maybe Fencer could re-write the Go program so the BK computer will mark the dead stones and games will be over.

2. juli 2006, 21:55:15
Chimera 
Ämne: Re:
Marfitalu: thanks

2. juli 2006, 21:54:10
Chimera 
Ämne: Re:
hexkid: I wasn't sure so thought I had better ask. Thank you I can but try 

2. juli 2006, 21:48:41
hexkid 
Ämne: Re:
volant: Yes ... well, no ...

There is nothing wrong with the picture.
What is wrong is the marked dead stones. After they were marked the way they were marked, the server calculated the score correctly :)

In the game there should be no dead stone marked. All stones on the board are alive.

You should decline the score and maybe tell your opponent to not mark your stones dead.

2. juli 2006, 21:47:17
Chimera 
Ämne: Re:
Marfitalu: I am the first to admit I don't know anything about this game. But should all of the black stones have been marked as dead. I thought they had lots of eyes. I'm really confused.

2. juli 2006, 21:39:06
Chimera 
Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?

ttp://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1607471

27. juni 2006, 10:53:46
dameningen 
I asked on the komi issue
answer:

"Komi will be made as an option with several possible values.
When I have time for it.

Filip"

15. juni 2006, 21:29:06
headius 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
hexkid: I'd be all over a user-selectable komi, so long as the standard rated games used correct komi to begin with.

15. juni 2006, 21:21:48
hexkid 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
headius: I think making komi a user-selectable value would be nice. Instead of getting handicap stones I could play a game with komi set to, for example, -83.5 :)

15. juni 2006, 21:08:38
headius 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
tbart: That's why I try to avoid playing white on 13x13 or 9x9 on BK right now; they're heavily weighted toward black. We need komi fixed!

15. juni 2006, 13:00:13
tbart 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
3.5 komi in 9x9 = really good for black

13. juni 2006, 10:47:58
dameningen 
Ämne: Re:
mangue: It is clear that it is inaccurate because it does not "kill" the dead stones.

12. juni 2006, 23:55:55
mangue 
do you think it is accurate?

12. juni 2006, 23:46:25
dameningen 
Ämne: Re: score in go after resign
Ändrat av dameningen (13. juni 2006, 10:46:47)
mangue: i do think the same way!

12. juni 2006, 14:50:33
mangue 
Ämne: score in go after resign
the score on player resign should not be displayed, because irrelevant and inaccurate
ex:
http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=1677284
it should seems clear that white has more than 1 point... but it does not change the result, black resigned.

It is just a suggestion to removing the misleading point calculation


6. juni 2006, 22:27:25
jurek 
Ämne: SGF code for games
It would be handy to be able to download an .sgf file, similar to the PGN code available for chess games. The format is fairly simple and, of course, supports all of the basic Go constructs available here, including komi and handicaps.

5. juni 2006, 20:24:40
GreyUsagi 
Ämne: Re: Marking of dead stones: Problem with opponent's behaviour
hexkid: Thanks for the advice.

5. juni 2006, 20:10:04
hexkid 
Ämne: Re: Marking of dead stones: Problem with opponent's behaviour
Ändrat av hexkid (5. juni 2006, 20:11:02)
Flummoxed: Many people here have had their fist contact with Go a few weeks ago when Fencer introduced the game on BrainKing. As you win even with all stones marked dead, I'd try pointing to your opponent that no stones are dead in that game (even if you have to offer him F6), and then accept the correct score of "White wins". It is my understanding that winning by 30 points is exactly the same thing as winning by 0.5 point as far as the BKR and statistics go.

5. juni 2006, 19:59:16
GreyUsagi 
Ämne: Marking of dead stones: Problem with opponent's behaviour
Ändrat av GreyUsagi (6. juni 2006, 20:44:51)
I have a problem with an opponent who refuses to end a game in a reasonable manner. More than once he has marked all the stones on the board as dead.

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1633225

Edited: As Hexkid thought it was just a misunderstanding about how to end the game. Silly me.

4. juni 2006, 23:22:25
headius 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
Salkkuman: I would vote for 6.5 for all sizes. For those who think komi should be larger or smaller for 13x13 or 9x9, consider this:

Yes, there are typically fewer points in 9x9 or 13x13...
...but the first move is also that much more important.

I believe most sources agree these two factors balance out so that komi should be the same on small boards.

In actuality, I would prefer a configurable komi, so we could specify it at game start, but I don't know how that would work with the current rating system. Fancier go sites are able to make games rated all the time, regardless of settings tweaks, but BK is limited in that regard. Perhaps only rated for default settings (komi 6.5, no handi)?

2. juni 2006, 23:32:14
hexkid 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
Salkkuman: As with so many things in Go, the Sensei's page about Komi is inconclusive

2. juni 2006, 23:16:29
dameningen 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
hexkid: With normal I ment, outside of BK.

2. juni 2006, 23:02:44
hexkid 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
Ändrat av hexkid (2. juni 2006, 23:05:27)
Salkkuman: Currently on BrainKing, komi is 5.5 for a 19x19 board, 4.5 for a 13x13 board and 3.5 for a 9x9 board.

At the current playing level of most of the people (me included, rating notwithstanding) maybe a komi of 0 (zero) would be nice :)

2. juni 2006, 22:55:32
dameningen 
Ämne: Re: Komi fixes
headius: No. The normal is 6.5 in all these sizes if I had understand it right? At the current playing level of most of the people it is not problem, but of course more equal the better. I personally are not so sure which would be right komi.

2. juni 2006, 22:38:20
headius 
Ämne: Komi fixes
Has there been any word on getting komi fixed? With a too-low komi (drastically low in 13x13 and 9x9 sizes) white is at a distinct disadvantage.

2. juni 2006, 12:08:34
mangue 
try hex against the computer.

http://www.mazeworks.com/hex7/index.htm

26. maj 2006, 23:04:04
mangue 
is not it? I havent play since a while... I used to play it on playsite.com but they remove it.
it is a very clever game and I will sure play some games here too

26. maj 2006, 13:26:24
Friker 
Ämne: HEX - a variation of GO
Thnx fo link.

26. maj 2006, 11:18:15
Pixie 
Ämne: Re:
mangue: Draw is impossible in Hex.

25. maj 2006, 21:55:16
mangue 
it is similar to line of action for the strategy, but there are probably more draws in hex

25. maj 2006, 18:11:50
ghardh 
Ämne: Re: HEX - a variation of GO
Salkkuman: Yes, it's a very simple idea (but nevertheless hard to play).
And it has nothing to do with Go.

25. maj 2006, 16:50:07
dameningen 
Ämne: Re: HEX - a variation of GO
estanto: ty, so the game idea is to connect one side to an other

25. maj 2006, 16:25:11
ghardh 
Ämne: Re: HEX - a variation of GO
Salkkuman: But that isn't the Hex game invented by Nash.
Here is an example of a game I played (and lost) at LittleGolem http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=396096&nmove=66

25. maj 2006, 13:57:23
dameningen 
Ämne: Re: HEX - a variation of GO

25. maj 2006, 09:42:53
Friker 
Ämne: HEX - a variation of GO
I dont know the rules of HEX. Can you send me the rules? (or link)
friker(at)centrum.sk

19. maj 2006, 17:44:37
DragonKing 
Ämne: HEX- a variation of GO?
Are there any GO players here who also play HEX? This is the game invented by two men independently- one of them was John Nash a part of his work in game theory at Princeton. I'm curious if there are many players in the USA. I tend to think of this game as a avariation on GO- certainly seems to have been inspired by GO.

12. maj 2006, 20:32:00
mangue 
of course I could have done that against you salkkuman, but this is not fair and Fencer could rule such case (ex: http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=1593749 )

12. maj 2006, 17:46:35
dameningen 
There was something going on sometime about if players disagree about the dead stones. How it should be done if one player have blocked other and there cannot be any conversation?

2. maj 2006, 21:06:11
Fwiffo 
marfitalu & headius: Thank you both.

2. maj 2006, 19:42:50
headius 
Ämne: Re:
Fwiffo: I think this is probably what you meant, but to clarify...when handicap stones are placed, every source I know of says white plays first. I think the exception is perhaps the handicap of "1" where black still plays first but white gets no komi.

If BK is allowing black to play first after placing handicap stones, that is certainly not correct.

1. maj 2006, 08:16:38
Fwiffo 
Ämne: Re:
Marfitalu: Yes probably. It is incorrect though:
0 handicap should be black starts the game, white has komi
1 handicap should be black starts the game with no komi for white
2 handicap should be black starts the game with two stones, no komi for white
etc.
I'll put it on my list :)

1. maj 2006, 00:00:53
Fwiffo 
Hm I tried to give furbster 2 handicap stones in a teaching game, but surprisingly he got 3. It is usual to regard the placement of the handicap stones as blacks first move. Maybe it was noticed before on this board or in the Go fellowship. Have to look it up.

28. april 2006, 13:08:57
night owl 
Ämne: Re: help
thanks fwiffo..i did a lot of passing.i know there is alot of diff way's to play it i played a few years ago still did not understand it then..if i took all my plays stones how did we start the same game again it is in the tournament games...not really...ok i will do that..and thanks again.

28. april 2006, 07:57:13
Fwiffo 
Ämne: Re: help
night owl: As a beginner you indeed should start on 9x9. It is more easy to handle.
the x's you are talking about are probably the marking of dead groups. When both players pass, the dead groups should be marked. Brainking helps a little with the marking. When one player disagrees (which should be expected as Brainking very roughly counts) he/she can offer a better proposal as to which groups are dead. This causes very different markings.
I hope you understand, else invite me for a teaching game 9x9.

28. april 2006, 03:15:50
night owl 
Ämne: help
can anyone help me out..tell me how comes if black has a few x's on one move then a few moves later black had lots of x's. i took them all..now we are playing again we are playing go 9x9..as i dont have a clue how it works..thanks

27. april 2006, 09:20:33
headius 
Ämne: Re:
headius: correction to this; I have finished a couple games now, and BK does try to mark dead stones. I would guess that the game in question wasn't counted up simply because it ended in a resignation.

25. april 2006, 02:10:24
headius 
Ämne: Re:
jurek, onigoroshi: The large territory would almost certainly go to white, and should be counted as white's territory. There are places along the border that should probably be reinforced, but they are all miai (http://senseis.xmp.net/?Miai) and would only make a difference of a couple points.

However, my guess why it's counted is that BrainKing's logic doesn't try to guess ANY dead groups, and so the black stones in white's large territory prevent it from marking that as territory. Also, since the game was resigned, there's no need to count them; if you both had passed, however, and marked those black stones as dead, I assume BK would then correctly count the upper territory as being white's.

All white's stones will live; only black's large group will live. Since there's practically no chance of an invasion of white's large territory being successful, it should be scored for white. If, for example, the white group at J8 only had one liberty left with black to move, things would be drastically different.

At any rate, there's no question it would be white's territory. It is not dame, because it is territory: "In the endgame, empty points on the board which are not part of either player's territory and have no prospects of becoming territory." The points inbetween white's border and black's living group are dame, however.

25. april 2006, 00:05:14
jurek 
Ämne: Re:
onigoroshi: Dame refers to areas that are neither person's territory. If dame were to be marked correctly (which maybe it should be here), then all of the upper portion of the board would be in dame.
If you look at your dame link:
White's upper-left territory is bounded by the stones D9-D8-C7-D6-E6-D5-C4-C3-B2-A2.
White's lower-right territory is bounded by the stones H1-H2-H3-G4-G5-H5-I5-J5.
Black's lower territory is bounded by the stones B1-C2-D3-E4-F4-G3-G2-G1.
Black's upper territory is bounded by the stones E9-E8-D7-E7-F7-G6-H6-I6.
The circled points are neither white's nor black's territory and considered dame.
The point marked 'a' is a potential capture by white if white plays A1 first, so black must fill this in if white plays A1, or take the A1 before white does.

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