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19. Febrero 2009, 13:11:45
The Usurper 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
(V): A living wage being one you can afford to live on decently, we have no guarantee of that here. It certainly isn't written into any laws, nor does the government seek to force companies to pay more, since the unions were gutted by Reagan, etc. We do have what is called a "minimum wage," which stands at $7.25 an hour, I think, or something close to it. But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.

We also have a small tax credit for children, which some receive once each year at tax time. Sure it helps, but not much. What we don't have, that you do (unless I am mistaken) is national health coverage. Many millions in the U.S.A. don't have insurance. They are one accident or illness removed from the kind of debt it is very hard, sometimes impossible, to recover from. Not to mention that, having no insurance, the care itself will be substandard for an long-term ailment.

You speak of the stupid bankers. It is the same here. In fact, the bankers in England & the bankers in the U.S.A. are often the same people! Laws are always going in effect to protect the bankers here, rarely if ever the citizens. And the credit card companies, etc. That's why I'm not a Democrat, though I spend more time here debating Republicans. For example, our new Vice President, while a senator, pushed credit card laws through giving the companies more power to raise interest rates without reason, etc.

We have no cash incentives based on savings, at least not built into the government system. My brother spent some time in Germany in the '80s, said at that time the poor were much better off than the poor here. No one was destitute. Here, we have homeless veterans living on the streets, etc.

19. Febrero 2009, 13:40:13
Mort 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
The Usurper: Yes, we have National health coverage as well as the ability for people to buy private policies if they wish.... often though in cases of speciality, it's the same consultant, just he's getting a little extra cash via his private patients.

I heard that the lack of universal health coverage is costing 10's of thousands of lives each year.... I can't understand a policy that kills it's own people through lack of a basic service necessary to peoples well being.

.... One doctor from Africa came over with his team recently to the USA to run a clinic for those without health insurance.... why is such a thing necessary? The USA's current system is inefficient, expensive to run and delivers less service then many many countries less rich then the USA.

Why the waste? Can't the USA government stand upto the lobbyists and tell them to get lost and be ready for change for the better in order to save lives?
Or are the 'perks' that some get from 'deals' to much to resist?

... Something stinks about the situation and that some put money above lives of their own people, basically via lack of care letting them die. Over here we call that Corporate manslaughter, those responsible would be in jail.

19. Febrero 2009, 13:46:32
The Usurper 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
(V): It certainly stinks, and Corporate manslaughter is an accurate way to describe it. The government doesn't stand up to the lobbyists here because the lobbyists own the government. Many politicians move back and forth, from government jobs, to lobbying jobs, and vice versa. We are the richest country in the world, but that wealth is actually accumulated into relatively few hands. This trend has continued very strongly during the last 3 decades, so that, economically speaking, the Democrats are now to the right of where the Republicans used to be. The result is tragic for the working man.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:06:52
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
The Usurper:

But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.


Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place??????????


Its just so frustrating to listen to you babble on about how poverty is because of lack of opportunity, yet you live in the country that offers more opportunity than any other, and when we try to give Iraqis a chance for more opportunities, instead of sending them food decade after decade, actually giving them hope to take care of themselves, then all you want is for Bush to go to jail, and whine and cry about the imperialist nation builder!!!!!


Its kind of like the example where no one breaks any laws, ever.... well, what would the police do, or the jails, what about all the revenue generated from fines and such????? As much as we say we want no crimes, at the same time we rely on crimes to make us money and provide jobs.

Its no different here, you say you dont like poverty, yet what would liberals do if there were no poor to hand out money to, what if there were no one that needed the government to help them, then where would liberalism be??? You rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly and the down trodden or else you wouldnt even exist, you have no interest in getting rid of poverty, you just want to keep peoples heads just above water, like a drug dealer, you want them to need you, its your only life line.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:24:44
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Liberals rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly????

Can you explain that? As it seems some capitalists rely on the poor being poor, some parties rely on their voters being 'uneducated' and 'uninformed' to get their votes, and what has the elderly got to do with it?

As for the downtrodden, why are people treading on them? Are some people that empty they need to tread on people to feel good about themselves, or would a gradual process of tackling the problem(s) be a better and greater idea.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:27:22
The Usurper 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): You see my point, about how many Americans think. It is so twisted, it is hard to unravel. And Fox News, the content of which you can now examine for yourself, gives you an indication why.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:33:18
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
The Usurper: ... Fox news it appears, or at least the 'editorial' shows would like your President to fail in his plans.

.... But that would mean the USA would end up in such a state that it would make the great depression look like a boom period.

... Funny they want the USA to be on the brink of total economic ruin.

19. Febrero 2009, 17:02:07
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): You obviously dont listen closely enough.... nobody wants him to fail, we just dont think huge government spending and other parts of his plans are the right answer.

Nobody wants our country to be in economic ruins either, we just dont think that is going to happen, we simply got way ahead of ourselves, and we are naturally correcting, where does it say that we are all entitled to unlimited growth and prosperity all the time????

19. Febrero 2009, 17:05:18
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: You seem to forget the Iraq war, when liberals said they support our troops, but not the war????

Why cant we now support our president but not his policies????

19. Febrero 2009, 17:17:48
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Oh I was listening and those who were talking wanted him to fail. I think they are miffed at him being a democrat and President. Bad losing basically

Well we over here have had our Government save banks rather then let them go under and put peoples savings at risk. Certain other steps are being done, to prevent 'this' happening again. It's cost the UK people billions, but the alternative..... ....

And what is wrong at making savings and creating jobs? There are areas you full well know that are inefficient... Is sorting them out wrong, as in the long term the investment will pay off.

I look at it like a doctor faced by a patient who has an illness that has to run it's natural course as no cure is available. He/She does his/her best to make the patient as comfortable and pain free as possible, care and concern are part of the oath they took.

The voters thought your President's ideas were better. And as commentated by those who watched him speak..... They felt hope at last.

19. Febrero 2009, 17:23:56
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): Oh I was listening and those who were talking wanted him to fail. I think they are miffed at him being a democrat and President. Bad losing basically


Are you kidding me????? Where have you been the last 8 years, in a cave????? I can find you 10 news stations for every fox news that did exactly what you are saying against Bush!!!!! I never remember you calling them bad losers?????

19. Febrero 2009, 17:32:12
tyyy 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: I agree Czuch, i didn't care that much for Bush, but He was our president, what happened over the last 8 was disgusting.move on.org and that slob michael moore ran a disgusting smear campaign from day one.I'll say again, I rather would have had Clinton,but I'm glad we had Bush rather than that blowhard Gore and that stooge kerry

19. Febrero 2009, 17:37:47
tyyy 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: yes, because my family's future depends on it, but i will blast him for every stutter , every time he misspeaks,every bad bill, and wasteful spending, and any mistake... its only fair

19. Febrero 2009, 17:45:02
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: does this mean you are going to be supportive of Obama?

What do you consider support??? I am not out with a protest sign against him, I am not calling for his impeachment.... is that support?

19. Febrero 2009, 17:51:36
tyyy 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: are you purposely trying to humiliate him, denigrate him, take sound bites out of context, make insulting movies of him like they did for the last 8 years??? gee why not??

19. Febrero 2009, 17:57:10
tyyy 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: If hollywood is where you look for education and or advice on national or world events, then good luck, american idol will be telling you how to vote

19. Febrero 2009, 18:03:24
tyyy 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: don't look to Hollywood for political objectivity,, , check Babs Streisand and others for their views

19. Febrero 2009, 18:03:54
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: it's entertainment, not something to educate...

Same for Gores an inconvenient truth???? That won all kinds of movie awards... glad you think its all just entertainment, and not education.... but why did they make all the school kids watch for then???

19. Febrero 2009, 18:13:01
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: you're just jealous cuz the famous people don't agree that everyone is born equal, and believes in giving a hand UP. lmao


What does being famous have to do with being intelligent???? You value someones opinions just because the enjoy some fame????

19. Febrero 2009, 17:56:48
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Charles Martel: We all knew this would happen.... when you bash bush its because he is an idiot who deserves it... when you bash Bam..... at least everything being said against Bam is true, nobody has lied or misrepresented or taken out of context anything.... its simple disagreement in views and ideas...

19. Febrero 2009, 17:59:17
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: I'm not bashing your Pres as he's not shown yet to be an idiot like Bush. If he mucks up through stupid mistakes like Bush I'll make comments.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:57:06
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
The Usurper: Problem with your theory is, fox news didnt create conservatism, its the other way around....

19. Febrero 2009, 16:59:39
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: No. I'd say it was more Rupert Murdoch who made Fox news the way it is now. He is well known for creating conservative media with a bias that can leave details out, or play with reality.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:53:48
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V):

Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Not even close to what I am saying..... Its a personal choice, but dont complain to me or ask me to help you raise the kids you had that you cannot afford to have either! Most minimum wage jobs are for the young and undereducated, stepping stone jobs that arent meant as life long careers for anyone, they arent meant for married couples with a hand full of kids.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:56:53
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: You are talking like you expect a perfect world... It ain't.

.... well, it is, but that's do with something else, but at the same time it's recognised it isn't perfect as well.

19. Febrero 2009, 17:11:37
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): You are talking like you expect a perfect world... It ain't.


Yup, we happen to agree.... it aint a perfect world, our economy will sometimes slump, some people will lose jobs some will lack opportunity, sometimes the markets will rise, sometimes people will get a good job... its an ebb and flow.... like everything.... the economy will rise and fall, the earths climate will constantly change, there is nothing wrong with any of that.... especially nothing that needs us to go into a panic spending spree, liberals are all about panic and scare tactics, they paint everything gloom and doom and then tell us they can take care of it all, just give them a chance and they will save us from ourselves!

19. Febrero 2009, 17:33:05
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Yes, but if like what has happened now, this slump occurred from people basically relying on a economic 'boom' to go on for ever based on crazy credit and greedy and as descibed "crazy mistakes that you'd only expect from someone who doesn't know what they are doing"... Boom periods based on credit never last. It's an economic fact. The Bubble will burst and not nicely.

This is not doom and Gloom, this is reality. Fact.

But the question is, knowing that such systems have been used in the past and gone "POP", why on earth are were they still allowed to be used?

Thatcher used the "BOOM and BUST" economic system and it went BANG, so now aka Titanic style (lifeboats) rules are being put in place. People are being called to account for their actions.

It's not your people's fault, they are not to blame.. They are taught the American way and fell in love with a dream that ended in a nightmare by marketing pressure, and certain amount of 'tradition' and peer pressure.

The democrats can't save you. you have to save you by believing in your country again, and rediscovering some wisdom over what is allowed and some learning over 'bad mistakes' by bosses of big corporations. Not poor people, but rich men and women.

And FIX that lobbying system of yours!!

19. Febrero 2009, 17:43:14
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): Boom periods based on credit never last. It's an economic fact. The Bubble will burst and not nicely.

...and it is my opinion, and others as well, like some you see on fox news, that this new spending spree is only temporary as well, and it too will never last!


Its like giving a kid an allowance... they have money to spend, go to the mall or the movies or a bite to eat, but that $20 bucks only goes so far, and they come back next week looking for another $20.... the reality is that you arent creating any wealth when you give your kid an allowance, you give them something temporary, nothing different when the government pumps a bunch of money at us, its a temporary fix.... and there is absolutely no evidence that we wont get to the same place in a few years without any type of stimulus?

Economists are still today debating weather or not the new deal actually made us take longer to come out of the great depression, than doing nothing at all would have!

19. Febrero 2009, 17:55:17
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: It's not intended to last forever, just long enough to help your country recover.

Economists will always argue, It's good for job numbers

19. Febrero 2009, 17:59:46
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): It's not intended to last forever, just long enough to help your country recover.


Thats fine.... just that many think we will recover in a couple or few years anyway, without the government huge spending, some disagree, Bam was elected, so we do it his way, doesnt mean we have to think it is the right decision, all we can do is sit back and see what happens now.

19. Febrero 2009, 18:02:24
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Exactly... sit back and see if he's got it right. If he doesn't... then he won't get re-elected. If he really mucks up. He'll be impeached or resign.

19. Febrero 2009, 17:20:05
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Tuesday: and happen to be the type to give a hand up to the people conservatives detest.


Its called a hand out not hand up.....

19. Febrero 2009, 18:51:47
rod03801 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V):
You say: Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

People have to have a license to Fish or Hunt in the USA. (Not sure if it is that way over there) Yet anyone can have a baby! I DO think that people should have to prove they can bring up a child properly before having one! Of course, that is absolutely impossible. And who would be the person who makes this decision? And my solution to not allowing babies until after this proof, would be controversial as well. lol. Some sort of mandatory birth control until you DO get a license to have a child. Before you blast me for that, I know that would be a very bad solution. It has it's merits though.

19. Febrero 2009, 19:01:11
rod03801 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Hmmm.... not very Libertarian of me either!

Guess I'm not in that box either. Darn it. That's the box I didn't mind too much!

19. Febrero 2009, 19:07:18
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
rod03801: Whats wrong with a license to have a baby? At least a course, and a test, something to make them think a bit first, it might not be perfect, but I bet it would help prevent some from having one that they cant take care or adequately?

19. Febrero 2009, 19:08:31
rod03801 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Personally, I would support it.

19. Febrero 2009, 19:29:38
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
rod03801: Sorry, but with the way certain services designed to stop bad bad parents have .. um.. mucked up, such a system just could not work. There is no way you can be sure of what the future may bring to the chosen ones, how an incident may cause one to go bananas.

And how are you going to persuade millions of people to under go temporary 'sterilisation', plus the factor that you are limiting the gene pool is dangerous. Plus the revolts would cause civil war in America, even within republican groups due to certain bits of the Bible celebrating what marriage is about.

....... More money to child protection services and better training would be better. Better education at school over birth control and STI's, free condoms to teenagers, plus other plans to show the FACTS about unprotected sex in adverts would be better.

The Chinese have a system based on fines for families that have over 2 (I think) children. But that is over population control, to stop the Chinese people out growing their country.

19. Febrero 2009, 19:37:36
Czuch 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
(V): Nobody is saying like China, but whats wrong with a course and a test? We do it to have a gun or hunt or drive a car or even to get married?

Seems like your solution for most is through some sort of government entity, but you have no faith when it comes to this one subject all of a sudden?

19. Febrero 2009, 20:30:17
Mort 
Asunto: Re: Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place
Czuch: Um no, your gun policy is a state thing, otherwise how can a bank get away with giving out free rifles for opening an account!!

No... I have realism. I've seen how loopholes can be used and how serial killers and child abusers (from watching stuff that probes such people) on how a face can be put on. I've also seen people who've past their driving test drink drive, or drive so dangerously that they kill or maim others.

A driving test pass means you can drive, it's no guarantee you'll be a good driver though.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:25:04
The Usurper 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
Czuch: lol Those are some interesting points of view you have. Ah well....experience teaches where knowledge is lacking.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:28:08
Mort 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
The Usurper: There is the old saying "Life begins at 40"... why... because of an old problem that the Jewish faith found that a certain amount of living is required before certain aspects of Judaism can be taught. For to try to teach before hand would be like planting a seed in barren soil.

19. Febrero 2009, 16:39:21
Mort 
Asunto: Re: How about if...
Tuesday: Only know one reason, experiance and education.

But this says more....

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_forty.htm

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