The Usurper: And the only plausable reason for the secrecy which has surrounded our treatment & trials of detainees, so this point, is that we ourselves have something to hide.

That is hardly a true statement of fact.... there are other more plausible reasons.... because they are captured on a battlefield where they are not an active participant, not a member of any real army, and because they are captured in this manner, there is not any means to participate in any real or active investigation, and collect evidence, like in any real world situation. That is the one and only reason to "hide" anything

The Usurper: These two articles refer to a recently released Pentagon study




Now you want to quote the pentagon???? I thought they were part of the whole conspiracy???

You want to have your cake and eat it too

The Usurper: Take, for example, the U.S. invasion of Iraq. It was logical. The argument was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, and that he had a hand in the 9/11 attacks.


Well, here we have an example of your premise being false.... First, saddam did have WMD, he used then against his own people, and he never gave any proof that he stopped making them or had even destroyed any of them, and there was never anything said about him being involved in 9/11. check your facts...

(V): and logic isn't always the best way to think when considering humans.



..is that the liberal secret??? I have long suspected it... suspend logical thought in favor of the heart!



Had you told us that 8 years ago, it would have saved a lot of senseless typing

(V): Anf if you wiped the Palestinians of the face of the earth,

never said anything about wiping Palestinians off the face of the earth just those that are terrorists

(V): I doubt one country would get filled up, there are plenty of countries to choose from.


Dont be so literal... point is, more people would migrate into the capitalist country than the socialist one!

(V): Then give the Palestinians a bigger country,

You give them a bigger country then.... make some room, I say its easier to just kill all their terrorists, that should make plenty of room for them, or they could just emigrate, thats what happens when you outgrow your space....nobody is stopping them from moving into your country are they?

hey fencer... see you looking in on us? Any comments?

The Usurper: Sure stick with it... its not a bad thing for you to be a liberal..... but what does it have to do with a federal government?

I think you confuse the words government with society, a society can and should be all those things, but the society is not the same as the government.

The Usurper: Why do you have the word 'government' like that? Looks to me like it was inserted or changed and was not the original word used in the quote?

The Usurper: I know!!! It is so sad!!!!

I hate that the Palestine terrorists hide themselves among women and children, shows them for the cowards they really are! We should wipe them from the face of the planet, once and for all!!!

(V): Is that possible in American government?

Like I said, its a trade off, and isnt perfect, neither is socilaism, I say let the socially minded move to a socialist country, and let the capitalist minded move here.... guess which country would fill up first?

Its so funny how Usurper and other liberal types love to fight for the government to give away all my money.... but try to tell them that they have to give something in return IE stay healthy, or stay off drugs, and have testing to prove it.... they run like the little girls they are...

The Usurper: If you would promice to move out of this country, I would send you my life savings...

Artful Dodger:

Artful Dodger: I agree... the bottom line is that a child is the responsibility of the parents.... and sure, there are rare exceptions, just like everything, but the facts remain, children are the responsibility of their parents, and if you arent ready to accept that full responsibility, then DONT HAVE ANY CHILDREN!!!!

Czuch: hey, no ad homenum attacks.... what the heck is ad homenem anyway???

Czuch: Czuch, you are a fence sitting middle of the road no idea no convictions cop out of a person....

(V): Better for you. No more cheating health companies.

I am not saying that there are potential upsides to some of what we get with socialism.... my opinion is that there are many down sides as well, and I am willing to put up with the loss of the upsides to not have to deal with the down sides.

In other words, I also know that capitalism is not perfect, but neither is socialism, and i think that the advantages of capitalism out weigh the disadvantages, and that the downside from socialism out weigh the advantages, although I am not against some limited forms of government regulations and even some socialized policies.

(V): First, the president is on duty 24/7

second, I am referring more to Denmark, or swedes or one of those that are more socialized than yourself, like I said, you guys are more similar to us, we have many social programs already, and now even more, soon the banks and the health care maybe the autos, where does it end?

(V): Capitalism doesn't work either if no-one is productive.

Yes, but capitalism rewards productivity, and socialism does not!!!!!

How productive are you really going to be if 70% goes to someone who is being unproductive?

I hear you guys brag about have 6 weeks off a year or whatever it is(probably more) and laugh how hard Americans work compared to you... well that says it all, capitalists are more productive than socialists.....

(V): Plus.. you know a certain number of Americans goto Cuba.

... There was one case where 9/11 emergency workers had been denied full treatment due to insurance matters... The Cuban doc's just said "send them over here, they are hero's, there should be no denying them care"....


Talk about someone listening to the propaganda channel

(V): things like curing a disease, or finding out the nature of the universe have no merit


Dude! All that stuff takes money... it all takes money, everything takes money, someone somewhere has to make money, socialism doesnt work at all if there isnt anyone around actually doing something productive.

Capitalism promotes productivity, socialism sucks it dry (reminds me of an old girlfriend, but I digress)

I just dont get it... you suck 70% from the productive people to give it to the unproductive people so that the unproductive people can have the same life as the productive people until the productive people have been reduced to the middle class and have given enough to the unproductive people to make them middle class, and now you have a whole nation of middle class, everyones dream has come true, no poor no rich just one big happy middle class... now what???

The Usurper: Power is just one aspect... we rank quite high in many other aspects as well... but if I were so ashamed of my country as you are, and if i thought the government was such a conspirator against the good of the people, as you do, and I knew of other countries that had a better government and a better life, then I would simply go there, why not?

Why do so many want to come here to the US, if we are so bad???? Why not just go to Denmark, or the UK?

(V): we also have a mix of social and private, and really my beef is not with your country, really.

You are more similar to the US model than the denmarks or sweedens....

I just dont think we need to be moving more towards socialism than we already are, and i dont believe if every country were socialist that the world would be better off either.

Socialism doesnt promote greatness, it promotes mediocrity...

I prefer a chance at greatness coupled with a risk for the other end of the scale, as opposed to only a chance at mediocrity, with little hope for greatness.

Its a risk reward type of thing.... for any greatness comes with it a risk, so you and others dont think it is worth it, I happen to think it is, simple as that.

(V):

My point is that it easy to be the best country in the world when you take care of yourself and dont provide anything for the rest of the world....

But what if we were all like that?

Its like my questions in free health care... if everyone stopped working and started abusing the system, there would be no system left to abuse. Its only really free to the people who arent contributing to it. But most of you who claim to get free health care actually pay up to 70% of your income in taxes to pay for that so called free care!

My point is, it is largely due to our capitalist system that we are able to be so innovative.... what innovations for the world have Sweden or Finland or denmark ever done for us lately?

Where would the world be if the US and other capitalists countries didnt innovate and provide other such world needs?

The point is that the US provides many valuable things to this world that can only be gleened from our capitalism, and things that are not gleened from your precious nice neat clean and free socialized countries.

If the whole world were finlands, we would be one sorry world in deed, on sorry stagnant dying blah blah blah

I want to hear what it is, or at least what would be the ideal for you? Does it already exists? Is there a country that you want the US to emulate, one that already does everything you want the US to be?

Or is your utopia for the US something completely new, something no other country has ever been before?

I hear you all say great things.... too many poor people, to many rich people, shrinking of the middle class etc....

what is the ultimate goal for you then??? Are we all meant to be middle class? Or maybe even that we all should be poor, giving all our wealth to the government to take care of our wants and needs?

You can go on and on about this idea or that plan, but I need to know what is the end game for you????? What is the ultimate goal anyway? What would make you ahppy, when would you finally say that you are happy with the way things are?

...and not just that I want world peace and free health care.... but more how we achieve these things, give me some solid methods to acheive your Utopian USA?

I mean, if you are lost in a car, you dont just start taking random roads and hope you pick the right one, you use a road map that will get you efficiently from where you are to where you want to be...... I want to know the road map you have in mind for the US?????

(V): yeah, says who???? You are the one who started with the statistics about your health care ranking vs the US....

Whats the matter then with a few more statistics comparing our two great countries then???

Fact is, that despite your great 18 ranking in the world of health care, the US is still the number one super power of the world, and where does the UK rank in that category????

I dont give a crap about your socialized health system... it still has its faults, and 18th is nothing to brag about for sure..... both our systems have faults.....

you still havent answered my question about what happens if nobody works, who then pays for your free stuff???

Pedro Martínez: No problem

Czuch: Sounds to me like you prefer to keep people impoverished and give them free stuff, than to figure out a better way to get people out of poverty????

(V): That's not good is it!!

I might not use the word good, but it sure isnt bad.... like I said, we all die anyway, so in reality we arent talking about saving lives, we are talking about prolonging lives!

So, you dont have health care and cant afford the 5 million dollar treatment that will extend your life by a few months, and I am a millionair who can afford that... so what???


Since you guys are on with your phantom stats... tell me, how many people with health care die each year?

or better.... two people, both with health care coverage, both with the same disease..... are they both supposed to die at the same exact time???? One may outlive the other by many years, with the exact same coverage and the exact same disease.... your stats dont take things like that into account do they????

The Usurper: So its really poverty, not a non socialized health system that kills these people...

(V): our EMPIRE was the biggest ever.

and look where it is now????? Not the biggest ever! hahahaha, so you supposedly out rank us 18 to 35th in free health care, but the only one that really matters is over all rankings, and the US is number one baby, dont try to deny it!!!!

What percentage of the UK is leaving every year??? What percentage of the UK is being populated by new immigrants every year????

Number 18 in free health care???? Whats there to be so proud of in that stat anyway?

(V): But that's the UK.

No, thats everywhere!!!! Thats no different than here in the US either! You show up at a hospital and the most needy are seen first, regardless of who you are or what you can pay!!!!

(V): "More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.


Be careful with stats, you know they can be misinterpreted...

Yeah, maybe true, but they could be talking about someone with some advanced stage of a disease that would cost millions to treat, and maybe they cant pay that, so they end up dying sooner than the person who can pay those costly treatments?

You have to remember too.... we all die eventually regardless of our health care system and regardless of our ability to pay for treatment

Anyway, do go throwing those stats around like they mean that 18 thousand people went to the hospital with some sort of infection and were turned away so they died an agonizing death because they didnt get some cheap anti biotic or something like that... its just not the case!.

(V): and where does your country rank overall compared to the US?????? There are many downsides to your social democracy, or whatever its called......

The USA is the number 1 country in the world, not sure where you guys fall on that scale?????

Tuesday: I dont give a crap about the bible, it has absolutely nothing to do with my politics....

The Usurper: Proper health care saves lives. Lack of it results in deaths.

...and has been proven, socialized health care can result in death by waiting, and at least where i live, all mothers and children already receive free health care, and no person is ever denied care based on their ability to pay!

The Usurper: If they will save lives, they are pretty good ones.


Well, the problem you miss is that even if lives are saved in the short run with your socialized ideas, what if in the end they ruin or destroy a whole country????? A country so dependent on its government, after the government has collapsed, after the economy is ruined, after there are no more fat cats left to pay for your programs after we are all pounded into middle class oblivion, then what? You will personally be long ago dead, happy in your death that you saved someones life with your socialist compassion, but the people generations from now who suffer because your socialized ideals have so weakened a country that more suffer than ever before?

You have no proof that this is not the destiny of your social democracy gone so wrong, is there?

Artful Dodger:

But what if everyone wnated free health care but no one wanted to contribute to the costs? An impossible idea.


Thats the point missing in most arguments for government sponsored social programs.... it seems so stupid to me.... but free isnt really free, someone pays for it, the federal government gets its money from the people it works for, if everyone gets it for free and nobody pays into it, then where are you left?

Who is going to build the new MRI machine, if nobody is going to pay them to do it????? Thats right, nobody will, and they will get paid to do it, so its not free health care, its just free to the people who dont contribute anything to the society in which they live in!!! For the rest of us hard working souls, nothing is free, we are the ones working to make it free to the free loader! drives me nuts!

The Usurper: As a result, many average joes & their families suffer, some even to the point of death.


That is such a load of crap! Our lack of a national health care is not a causation for the death of anyone! There is not one person in the US denied health care, this even applies to those in this country who arent even citizens!

You really need to back up this crap with some facts please?

The Usurper:

It's nice to come on and see able defenders of what I consider to be a better understanding of the world & politics,


Are you kidding me??? With basically just two political philosophies, at least here in the US, even a monkey can get lucky and happen to agree with you from time to time, I think you give them too much credit though if you think they have the some of the same beliefs as you and for the same reasons dont sell yourself so short

I am no Christian fundamentalist, but I share a few of the same views with them but for very different reasons, and just because we might happen to vote the same way, I have no illusions that they are on the same plane, so to speak....

(V): Opec caused that oil crisis, but when they went up last year so high, it was Bushs fault???

(V): Nobody is saying like China, but whats wrong with a course and a test? We do it to have a gun or hunt or drive a car or even to get married?

Seems like your solution for most is through some sort of government entity, but you have no faith when it comes to this one subject all of a sudden?

I heard on economist today saying that even if Bam made interest rates to minus 2 %, still 40% of the people couldnt pay off their own mortgages!

What the heck are we doing anyway???

rod03801: Whats wrong with a license to have a baby? At least a course, and a test, something to make them think a bit first, it might not be perfect, but I bet it would help prevent some from having one that they cant take care or adequately?

Charles Martel: All the famous people are democrats... thats good enough for me... Im off to the voter registration to change right now

Tuesday: too late

Tuesday: you're just jealous cuz the famous people don't agree that everyone is born equal, and believes in giving a hand UP. lmao


What does being famous have to do with being intelligent???? You value someones opinions just because the enjoy some fame????

Charles Martel: hahahaha... what about that Tuesday???? All the dems are just so smart and sensitive and they do nothing wrong... hahahah Kennedy is but one on a long list of dumb ass democrats