Bernice: Sounds great, I hope you have a spare room for me, I will be there for a christmas spa!

Bernice: I agree, I dont think you should buy anything that you dont have the cash up front for, the exception probably a car, but I dont even know about that, and a house. But paying cash for a house, thats awesome, congrats on that one, except I am sure there has to be something about it that wasnt ideal, if you know what I mean?

Anyway, thats the down side, that you always need a house to live in, and when you sell your house for double the cost or whatever, you still have to buy a new one at the current rates, so it does us no good, really unless we only need less of a house or we move to a cheaper area, or like me, you have two and you can sell one when the value gets up there!

(V): you might be surprised... a house bought for 200k last year might not be worth 400k in 9 years, but its likely to be worth 800k in 19 years, and is probably going to be worth at least 1.6 million in 29ears, and my guess is that the house you buy next year will be 5 times in 19 years!

Tuesday: Renting is a great option for many people, and the only option for many right now....


when I lived in Hawaii, we paid over 100k in rent over 7 years, we paid for some guys house who wasnt even in the state, and thats when i decided that guy should be me, but you are right, the flexibility renting givessomeone is worth it to many people!

Artful Dodger: Well, like vikes said, arms arent really disigned for people who are going to keep them for a long period of time, but people were stupid, and people who could not afford and should not have been buying were buying anyway because they got false hope from temporary low interest rates.

Also again, there were people like me, who can afford to purchase, but am self employed and had at the time a poor credit history,these sub primes were perfect choices, and I knew going in that i had 2 years to refinance or i would get pounded, and I did that... but with your regulations, no bank would have ever even considered giving me a loan, and now my credit is so good, they beg me to take out more!

(V): I think if you buy a house today, at the discounted prices, its very likely that your house will more than double in the next 10 years!

Artful Dodger: first, i believe that points are a one time thing determined at closing, its only the interest that will change, and if there are people defaulting on arms right now, I would have to assume its nothing to do with interest rates, since those are way down, but the fact that these people have either lost their income or they really couldnt afford the loans no matter the rates?

(V): No, that is an average, no matter the conditions... yes sometimes it will not be true but other times it will be even higher! But it still is a good general rule of thumb!

BTW, this is a great time to purchase real estate, low prices and low interest rates, in 5 years from now you will be kicking yourself wondering why you didnt buy something right now!

Artful Dodger: Those are current rates for a new loan, but the people in default now are likely in loans 2 or 3 or more years old...

Home values double about every 10 years, so you buy a 200k house now, in 30 years it worth 1.6 million, who cares if you have not payed even one penny towards the principle, and you still owe the full 200k after the 30 years, you still have done alright and your payments were a few hundred dollars less every month, that pays for your car or whatever!

Artful Dodger: Like vikes said, some people arent in their house very long, and want as low a payment as they can get, an arm gives them that lower rate and they are out of their house before it adjusts up.

Opposite with interest only... you are planning on being in the house for 30 years, you want as small apyment as possible, and you dont care about creating equity except that what you will get from your value going up over 30 years

Artful Dodger: So when I see someone on tv today telling me they are losing their home because of their arm, they are just lying, because rates right now are at all time lows and anyone with an arm is actually paying less now than when they bought the loan in the first case!

Vikings: I agree, just because something is available does not make it the right way to go. Some people, an interest only loan is good, if you want low payments and dont care about equity, an arm may be good if you dont plan on having it too long or if you think rates are on the way down


I can agree with regulations that guarantee full discloser, not just in the fine print... but thats why we use mortgage brokers and dont just do to a bank ourselves looking for a loan. But a good broker will give you all the angles before they sell you a loan,and they should be required to as well

Artful Dodger: but dont interest rates of an arm go down when rates are low like now?

Artful Dodger: maybe i dont understand, but doesnt an arm mean that their rates adjust with the current rates? If so, with and arm their rates should actually be going down, if not at least where they started when they took the loan (maybe they can only go up but not down with the current rate?)

Artful Dodger: I had an arm to purchase my first real estate, also no money down and no documents as well... I got 2 years of payment history and then refied into traditional 30 year with equity as a 20% down payment.

Point is, the sub prime worked for me, without it I would still be a renter, instead I now have an apartment building that pays for itself and a 3 br 2 1/2 bath home in the country with 2.6 acres (also bought with no money down)

anyway, not for everybody, and people have to make sure it works for them, be smart, but they do work for some people!

Why not part of the banks bail out is that they have to loan money to the cars, one bail out two winners!

(V): I dont see how throwing good money after bad is going to solve or help anything? This is a delay tactic at best, and these companies will end up going under down the road, and we will never see any of our money back! If it is really such a good idea to help these companies out, then there would be plenty of private firms eagerly jumping in to get it done!

At least tell it like it is.... it will be better for these companies to go out of business at some other time than while we are in a recession, and that may be true, but dont make it sound like it is some sort of loan and that it is a magic pill and these companies will get better and pay us back with interest!

Jim Dandy: Does that mean that conservatives are the big government/bailout party now? Or that liberals are my brothers now because we all agrre that bailouts are wrong? Not quite sure?

hahaha, there, I said it, happy now?

Well, at least Bushs popularity will rise dramatically among liberals!! No? Oh thats right, liberals hate him so much, even when he acts like a liberal they still wont like him!

(V): okayt nothing to debate then....


you have to remember too though, that you and I are not your average news watcher, but the majority of people actually get most of their news from places like the CBS evening news or the like.... these are the people who make or break an election, and these are the people who see Katie Couric telling us how we should view things in Iraq.... it may not shape your or my opinions, but there are millions of sheeple out there who just go by whatever tom brokaw tells them to go by, and 9 times out of 10 that is slanted by liberal minded news people.

Tuesday: nobody said I cant afford a membership....and I am not a republican but more a conservative with libertarian views who almost always votes republican.... lol the last election I voted for one democrat and that poor sucker lost!

Jim Dandy: and to you again.... everybody knows that oreily is a conservative and what he does is not considered hard news!


stick with me guys please, I am talking world news tonight, for example... or the cbs evening news, those types of news programing which is supposed to be objective reporting of facts, not opinions or slants on them!

(V): Plus with all the radio stations on the conservative slant, etc... you right wingers do have quite a voice.


how dull do you have to be to keep this up??? I am not saying there are no conservative voices out there, all I am say is that there are some tv outlets that produce what is supposed to be hard news shows, and those are the types of shows I am talking about... strictly tv hard news in america, thats all!

(V): Sometimes I find reading or watching both left and right gets you closer to the truth.... You know.. read between the lines and that they take each other to task and keep the other side .. Um, for the lack of a better word.... honest.


Well, thats exactly why there needs to be a fox news out there, liberals love to hate fox news, but the fact is fox is the only right leaning news compared to every single other tv news outlet in America which have a bias to the left!


But it should not have to be like that.... we dont need one station showing a close up of a protest crowd trying to paint a picture of wide dissent, and then another news outlet pointing out how great it is that they have the freedom to dissent, we shouldnt have to watch every news show just to get an accurate picture of a news event!!!!

If news did the job it is supposed to do, then one story would accurately portray the size of the protest, and put it in context for us, maybe compare it to the size of other protests by the other side in the past, and also point out that at least we have given them the opportunity to make this protest possible.... that is the news I want! But because of biases, the so called news outlets dont want us to have any positive thoughts about Iraq....... wouldnt you rather be able to make up you own mind based on all the facts than be lead into your beliefs like sheep based on what some news outlet believes for you???

Jim Dandy: That is a good video, I have to admit that without ever hearing this guy before, i agree with everything he is saying, and my opinion is that Chris mathews looks like a complete idiot! But I can see there are 2 sides but I also believe that half the people are idiots, and I am not swayed that so many idtiots believe one thing or another, thing is everything this guy is saying is true, and the other guy is just a war hating bush hater givig the same ol blah blah blah, but then you probably will tell me the same about the guy that agrees with me

Jim Dandy: Are you saying that if someone was not at the rally they support Bush?

Well, obviously, no......

But the news showed a really close up shot of the event ( no wide screen from a helicopter or whatever) and then claimed "thousands" of people.... more likely somewhat less than 1000 people, and my watchful eye on media bias tells me that if they really had a huge rally they would have showed it in all its bush hating glory, and it would have been a true news event and story, and would have been legit, but instead they found a few hundred people with signs and had to throw it in there because they hate bush.... call me crazy

Jim Dandy: The divide kicks in when asked if it was worth the sacrifice.

I dont know how much energy any of us have left for this debate again.... but that is as honest assessment I have heard lately.

The point some people miss ( in my opinion anyway) is that we were already making a huge sacrifice in Iraq before the war, and I believe that even though we increased our sacrifice, in the short term, and the sacrifice came more in human lives than in dollars, that in the long term, decades even, we would have sacrificed a lot more than we will have now.

Again, one of my beefs with liberals, they tend to be too short term oriented... but with the time and money spent keeping an eye on Saddam (and then his sons after he died and then their sons) and the money spent to help the Iraqi people because saddam spent all their riches on palaces and such... I think we got a bargain... bottom line... we would have sacrificed more in both wasted time and money than we ever will bringing them some semblance of freedom and a chance to live their lives free from the aid of the US, and that is good for both them and us, a win win situation!

Jim Dandy: ,I'd be more skeptical if the reporter focused on the great field goal kicked by the losing team


Thats what I am saying too!!! MSNBC is trying to focus on a small rally against support for Bush, and they neglect to mention that it is because of Bush that they have that right to protest, and that there are 24.98 million people out of 25 million who were not at that rally!

Artful Dodger: not a chance, I dont even have to look at the link!

Jim Dandy: I dont know for sure... but I happen to believe it is not low, probably higher there than here! Why only a protest by a few thousand when the country has 25 million people?

My personal experience is with Vietnam, it was the same there then as iraq is here now, basically. I have been to Vietnam as a tourist, and the overwhelming majority there were happy with what we tried to do for their country and their only regret was that we left them hanging in a lurch!!

Give Iraq 20 years and my bet is that you will find the same kind of sentiments as well!

Artful Dodger: George Bush, because of his aides policies???

Bush shoe story on MSNBC, and then they add and show a protest in Iraq with "thousands" (supposedly) of protesters, in a country with millions of people, this is a very small protest march at best, and doesnt represent the feelings of a majority at all... but they are trying to portray it like that, to make Bush look bad because they hate Bush, and they agree with the protest themselves.

cant any Bush haters see this bias???? If this were a pro bush rally in Iraq, they would either not cover it at all, or they would point out exactly how few people were involved and how insignificant it really was!

They also fail to mention that it is because of Bush that these people can even have the ability and freedom to make this kind of march!!!! Cant any bush hater see this and at least admit it does exists??

If this were some democrat who liberated them, thats all you would hear about, "look at these freedom loving people who now have the freedom to dissent, just like we do here, how lucky they are now, free from the dictatorship of evil saddam, able to finally enjoy the freedom that we democrats gave to them, arent we such good people!!!!!

Jim Dandy: yeah, thats a board I am sure you wont find much political coverage except how good looking Obama is....

Just looked, i didnt find the media board?

Jim Dandy: I didnt know we had a media board?

But I agree with Art, we are discussing political bias in the media, I guess it could work there as well, maybe we should paste some of this in there and see if we can get any fresh opinions?

anastasia: not you... I think you are a conservative in liberals clothing, you just havent realized it yet... haha that was me too not so many years back....

Just do me a favor... do you ever have the chance to find Neil Bortz on the radio? He is a Libertarian radio talk show host... listen to him everyday at work or wherever for a week or two, and I gaurantee you, you will be saying to yourself all the time, "hey, that makes sense" "yeah, thats logical" "oh I never thought about it that way"... he has a very unique way of taking a topic and just looking at it in a nice logical manner, no hate or rants or the like, just discussion of issues and current events in a thoughtful logical manner, with insights that will open your eyes and make you think about issues like you never did before, and if you can listen to this guy for a couple of weeks and then come back here and tell me you arent leaning more conservative than you ever imagined, i will leave you be forever!

hahaha, who was saying on gen chat that this board would be dead compared to them???? hahah we have over 400 posts already compared to what 25 over there in the same time???

Jim Dandy: ;)

anastasia: I do sometimes, and i regret that.... sometimes its hard for me to separate the two, and to be honest, I am still trying to find out what a liberal is or what a democrat is? Thats why i get into trouble when i generalize too much and paint all libs and dems with a broad brush.... but I think you can do that with conservatives, we all have certain core things in common, and that is a problem fro liberals, because I dont see anything really in common except that you all tend to lean towards socialism, at least compared to conservatives, but I never heard any of you admit that, or anything really, just how you hate big business and you think with your hearts instead of your brains...

Jim Dandy: I'm a fiscal conservative,social democrat,I might even lean Republican if they acted conservative,but that ship has sailed

Okay, thanks! But given the lack of choice, is McCain or Obama more conservative? Its hard to believe someone who says they would lean republican if they were more conservative and then voted for the least conservative senator(most liberal) in congress for president?

anastasia: so...in your opionion...are all democrats liberal?? and ALL rep. conservative??

good question.... I dont really know... thats why I generally tend to consider myself a conservative, so I guess i would say that all republicans are conservatives, but all conservatives are not republican, but they are probably not democrats either, more likely some libertarian types, which I probably fall under that more as well.

Liberal/democrats I dont know how that one works... thats why I tend to argue more against liberals than democrats, and i try to talk about conservatives rather than republicans, like I said, we have skin head tpyes that vote republican, but they are not really conservatives.

Czuch: Its all about personal responsibility... a conservative spills coffee on themselves and doesnt think about suing and doesnt blame the lawyers and ask for more government regulation of lawyers so that dumb people cant sue for being stupid.

A conservative doesnt get pregnant and use abortion as birth control, a conservative says i messed up and now I will have this child and deal with it, women do have a right to choose, and you chose it when you had unprotected sex.

A conservative doesnt say wha wha wha, there are no white people in that college, you have to let me in just because I am white.

Conservatives dont say "I just was born disadvantaged, its not my faulty, the government owes me something".

You give me an issue, and I will look at it from the perspective of personal responsibility and I will make my choice about that topic based on those conclusions... maybe right maybe wrong, but surly I take a stand and I believe and I act.... I dont see that in liberals, I would have way more respect for a far left nut with an honest belief in their principles, than I do some fence sitting take no stance middle of the road Im no liberal I believe in nothing!

Jim Dandy: just give me a quick list...

More free market or less?

More quotas or less?

More government control and regulation or less?

Less military or more?

Higher taxes or fewer?

more social programs or less?

get the idea? I dont think liberals have any core ideals, really? I think you are all over the map, one hates war, one hates abortion, one hates big oil companies, one wants a free ride, one wants the government to regulate regulate regulate, one wants.... there really is no one core message, is there?

Conservatives arent fractured like that, You give me a topic and I can formulate my opinions on that topic based around my core ideals, not based on some emotional or feel good bleeding heart, i dont think liberals can say the same, but I would love to be proven wrong?

Just once I would like to hear a lib politician sit down and look you in the eye and say, "what this country needs is more social programs to help the disadvantaged, even if it comes at the expense of taking money from other hard working people, we need a country based on the economic policies of Sweden, and 70% taxes to with it, we need the government to take control of the oil industry and education and the banks and the internet and most everything else, we need to get rid of the military and then the rest of the world will do the same,we need the government to do everything for its people, and admittance into education and jobs should not be based on merit but on quotas.....

Jim Dandy: Hannity doesn't appeal or speak for your average Republican anymore than Olbermann speaks for your average Democrat


Sure he does... the fringe republican is the skin head racist, hannity doesnt speak to that fringe, he speaks to the common core values most average conservatives believe in, yes he points out problems with democrats when they conflict with what conservatives want, but for the most part, you dont hear Olberman speaking about what is good and right for this country except in the form of putting down Bush...

I can speak all day about what I want for this country without once mentioning what a loser I think kennedy or pelosi Et Al are or what losers liberals or democrats are, I dont know Olberman can?

Czuch: can anyone give me an answer to that???
I hear liberals say things like Democrats are for the little guy and republicans are for the big companies... or we need a change of direction for this country... or I am for abortion or all kinds of aloof platitudes like that... but unlike conservatives, I never really hear about over all general types of values or ideals?

You bring up socialism to most liberals and they run away like a fire just started, for that matter, you just bring up the word liberalism, and most people will tell you they are not liberals, no I am just an open minded independent who just happens to always vote democrat, or never votes for any republicans!


Maybe you Jim? You seem like a level minded liberal willing to stand behind your ideals? What are they, really? What do liberals stand for, if its not socialism and bigger government and spreading the wealth etc, what are the ideals of liberals, maybe I will become one too!

Jim Dandy: Well Hanity, the difference is that hannity tries to promote conservative ideals, maybe to a fault, but its different from Olberman, who doesnt really defend liberal values and ideals (do liberals even have any values and ideals?) as much as he just plays negative on Bush, and again hannity doesnt try to come off as some serious glasses wearing hard news journalist, but oberman really has some fantasy of himself that is far greater than the negative ranting guy that I see!

So, yes, I hate oberman way more than I like hannity, but hannity to me doesnt pretend to be anything than he is, and that is a mouth piece for conservativism

(V): If I was to name all the various outlets for conservative thought and republicans views in the USA this post would be very, very long.


You just dont get it do you????

Its about the hard news, you know, today so and so shot so and so... even Asia admits that all the news about helicopters (or whatever it was) going down all the time in Iraq, was not in sync with the reality she got from her friend who was there! So its not just about semantics IE leaving out that someone is a democrat, but also about the types of stories, IE you hate the war so all your stories are anything negative you can find. Not that the stories arent true (even though often exaggerated) but there is no balance, there were surly some stories in Iraq that pointed out something positive that was happening, but you would never catch MSNBC covering them.

The big problem that I see is that they do shape public opinions, and the point of news is not to impart your own biases into the public! If 9 or 10 news stations were behind the war in Iraq, instead of the other way around, and 9 of 10 stories showed positive results, and always ignored the negative, and always tried to portray the war in a positive light, and they promoted the American people to get behind the war effort, and always told us how great Bush is.... well this war probably would have been over long ago, but because these liberal news media types who hated Bush from day one, and who thought he stole the election, they could not wait to make him look bad at every turn (sometimes they didnt have to try real hard) and that reflected in their news coverage, and that reflected in public opinion and that reflected on why we are still in Iraq... dont worry about helping our war efforts, just so the evil vote stealer bush is mad to look bad!

Jim Dandy: I'm a liberal,but I can't stand Olbermann,I


That guy is so blatant, he tries to come across as Edward Murrow but he is really just a hack who hates Bush.... he is on tonight to bitch about Bush making up his own legacy.... move on already.... poor libs, what are you all going to complain about now that Obama is in???? Letterman is even still bringing on Tina fey to impersonate Palin, thats all you got boys???