Czuch:  Obama needs to realize (and likely he does) that the stimulus package will, at least in part, define the early days of his presidency.  He needs to get this one right.

I don't know why he doesn't just look at the proposed package, and then start naming names of all those in congress that piled on the pork.  Expose them and make it clear that they are using the stimulus package as an excuse for pork.  But he won't cuz he ain't got the backbone to do that sort of thing.  But wouldn't it be great if the sitting democratic president took on the fat cats and let them have it publically? 

Bernice:  Nuff of this chatter.  The mod may get upset and tell us we're off topic.    He can kiss my butt.  oppps, I'd better go to bed before I get into trouble. 

Bernice:I want to go waltzing with matilda and find a billy bong or whatever it's called. 

Bernice:That'd be so much fun.  ;)  My wife just said she'd love to visit there too.  Winter here is best to visit there.  I'd love to go on a walkabout in the outback.  :)  Do you know where crocodile dundee lives?  ;)  nite...

Bernice:Ok, I'll do that.  I don't know enough about Australia.  I would so love to visit.  ;)

Foxy Lady:  yeah, she snuck back on me.  ;)  Good thing I'm off to bed very soon. 

And now back to our regularly scheduled argument. 

Bernice:  You snuck back  :)

For Bernice:

http://www.actrtla.org.au/about.htm

Foxy Lady:See, now she left so I can be naughty again. 

Foxy Lady:  See why we need Bernice around here?  She keeps Czuch and I in line.  lol.  Bernice isn't afraid to disagree with me.  Or slap me upside my head. 

I never knew there were so many different groups out there opposed to abortion.  Sure the religious right is once such group, but I was surprised to find the following:

Atheists http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

Feminists  http://www.feministsforlife.org/

Democrats  http://www.democratsforlife.org/ 

Libertarians  http://www.l4l.org/

Others:  http://mommylife.net/archives/2008/07/prolife_feminis.html

It's worth the time to consider their arguments on such an important issue.

Bernice:he'll be back  lol

Bernice: Even some of my "fellow Christians" have beat up on me for not belonging to their affiliation.  (not on BK but other forums, of which I no longer participate). 

Bernice:I agree.  The issue itself is a political football.

Bernice:Doesn't it seem odd to you that the pro-choice advocates don't want others to impose their views on abortion on other people, and yet they want to pass laws that will require all tax payers to help fund abortions (through taxes).  I don't know what the issue is like where you are but here in the States it's a divisive issue.   

Foxy Lady:  I don't blame ya  ;)  That and religion are probably the two hottest topic buttons one can push.

Bernice:  another thing that bothers me.  Doctors that preform abortions make tons of money.  Abortion makes the millionaires.  It seems to me that anyone that stands to make so much money preforming an abortion shouldn't be in on the decision of the woman.   I realize that most often the decision is likely between the woman and her private physician and that she would be referred to the specialist, but it strikes me as odd that so much money could be made by such a practice.

Bernice:  I wonder if people (in the church) were just trying to do the right thing but were so seriously misguided that they made such poor judgments?  I don't know.   I'm sure there was plenty of religious arrogance that played a part in such decisions as well.

Bernice:  I would always opt to save the life of the mother in those cases.  Without exception.  That is the predominate view of most protestant churches. 

it illustrates well the range of reasons a person may have when it comes to having an abortion.  When it comes to the "health" of the mother, I want to know what is meant by that.  What exactly is the acceptable range of health concerns?   Why is that such a troubling question to answer?

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)     
       - Feels unready for child/responsibility     25%
       - Feels she can't afford baby     23%
       - Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities     19%
       - Relationship problem/Single motherhood     8%
       - Feels she isn't mature enough     7%
       - Interference with education/career plans     4%
       - Parents/Partner wants abortion     <1%
       - Other reasons     <6.5%
     TOTAL:     93%
(Approx.)

Bernice:  Gee, and I thought I was asking a fair question too. 

anastasia:  I'm unclear as to what extent the law would go with regard to the health of the mother.  What exactly does that mean?  I think some clarification would be nice. 

Czuch:  Yeah, it's hard to find an unbiased source of info on this anywhere.

coan.net:  The problem with the law (as in so many of these kinds of laws) is that there are ambiguous phrases.  Here's how the law reads.

"A government may not (1) deny or interfere with a woman's right to
choose - (A) to bear a child; (B) to terminate a pregnancy prior to
viability; or (C) to terminate a pregnancy after viability where
termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman; or
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in
paragraph (1) in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities,
services, or information.

In item C, what does it mean exactly the "life" or "health" of a mother.  Protect in what way?  From death?  Or from other things (like being fat is unhealthy and I don't wanna be fat and unhealthy so I want an abortion).  I'm not clear on this and neither are many others. 

"[The Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA)] would sweep away hundreds of anti-abortion laws, policies" - National Organization of Women web site.See Here

This can't be a good thing. 

" Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, joined
pro-choice members of Congress and activists at a Capitol Hill press
conference to introduce legislation that would codify Roe v. Wade into law and guarantee a woman's right to choose in all 50 states. " - NARAL

It seems that this law would remove states rights.  I thought the US was in favor of States Rights???

If FOCA is passed, it would automatically overturn

• State abortion reporting requirements in all 50 states
• Forty-four states' laws concerning parental involvement
• Forty states' laws on restricting later-term abortions
• Forty-six states' conscience protection laws for individual health care providers
• Twenty-seven states' conscience protection laws for institutions
• Thirty-eight states' bans on partial-birth abortion
• Thirty-three states' laws on requiring counseling before an abortion
• Twenty-eight states' laws requiring a waiting period before an abortion, and
• Sixteen states' laws concerning ultrasounds before an abortion

see here

I think there's a lot more to this law than people think.  It will be a sad day for the pro life movement and unborn children (and parental rights) if this becomes the law of the land.  There will be a huge fight over this one and if Obama succeeds, the next Republican president will overturn it.

Czuch:   Exactly right.  And partial birth abortion is nothing short of genocide on babies.   He needs to rethink that position.  I certainly don't want my tax money funding such things.

Foxy Lady:  ratts, I gotta go to bed.  Just when it was getting fun.  :)  

Foxy Lady:  Gotta keep you guys up on the latest stuff  

Bernice:  Laughter is good medicine.  I can't believe how funny politicans can be.  Al Gore actually appeared before congress and ask for some money from the <span>economic stimulus package to assist with global warming research.  global warming and economic stimulus?  Oh yeah, I see the connection.  

Foxy Lady:  I subscribe to lots of blogs.  lol

Guess what Brazil did that the US has been refusing to do?  Look for oil!  And they found a ton of it.  Well, a lot more than a ton.  Meanwhile, the US is looking for solar powered vehicles (these will be sold in Alaska) and battery powered vehicles too (long extension chords are in massive production as we speak)  

Bernice:  Just a little  ;)

Foxy Lady:  all of it uphill    I'd rather work with little kids.  

Foxy Lady:  Yeah cept if you told me to jump, I'd probably ask how high.    Did you know that Obama is against unreasonable gun control?  He's being accused of being a "centrist."  That's a good thing for those of us on the right.  Pelosi wants him to move left but she really wants him to do her bidding.  Obama won't do that.  He's a smart politican in many ways.  I hope he works with the republicans on this "stimulus" / pork spending package.

Foxy Lady:  Yeah, he can take it too.  She's our number one blog subscriber.  Wanna join the AD/Czuch fan club here?  All ya gotta do is listen to us ramble, and then disagree with us, and then sit back and watch us dismantle your arguments point by point.  Then Bernice comes on and puts us in our place and we start all over again.   It's great fun!  

Foxy Lady:  You got it right.  ;)  Yeah politics can be light fun as well as tense.  I like it both ways. ;)

Bernice:  I knew what he meant. 

Bernice:Are you sure it's not me you're talking about? 

Bernice: You tell him girl.  He won't listen to me. 

Czuch:No I'm not a progressive.  ;)  But when it comes to music, there are certain musical tastes I have that allow for individual expression.  Usually I'm a traditionalist when it comes to most things.  Music is no exception.  But thee is a lot to be said for interpretation and putting emotion into a song.  I'd say that when you sing together, you sing it the traditional way.  When a solo, you sing it your way (ala Frank Sanatra) 

Czuch:No but I am a musician and so I probably see it through my musical training more than through my political lens. ;)

Vikings: I see.  Well I think for some that's true.  Sandy Patty certainly could hold the notes.  I've never thought of it as I can't sing either way.  I sound like Paul Stooky. 

Czuch: I think it's just a style of singing.  Listen to the American Idol contestants that make it.  they all do that.

And jennifer houston rocked the house.  

Czuch:Not really.  I like they way they sang. 

Vikings:  Faith Hill can hold a note for a long time.  Have you heard her songs? 

Czuch:I think you're over reacting.  A bit.  ;)  Patriotism is from the heart and singing and interpretation go hand in hand. 

Jim Dandy:
  He could hold peace conferences with Israel and Hamas "Sham Wow" style. 

Gitmo will close.  But only because Obama wants to improve our image with the world.  But, what will they do with all those captured terrorists?

They will simply lock them up somewhere else.

They won't be tried in a civil court because the rules of law in civil court has greater requirements on rules of evidence etc.  And let's be realistic, they weren't captured by CSI Miami.  They were captured on the battle field.  Soldiers don't have time to take pictures, collect bullets, interview "witnesses" or any of those other required evidence components that would be required in a civil court. 

The terrorists aren't with a government per se.  They don't wear uniforms.  Some argue that since they operate outside the rules of the Geneva convention and are not therefore entitled to Geneva convention agreements on treatment.

Likely the US will find a "new home" for the detainees and then try them by military tribunal.  It won't be a complicated procedure.  The fact that the detainee will have been captured on the battle field or is a known terrorist (where evidence does exist to support the claim) will likely be enough to detain some indefinately.

If Obama lets some go and they turn around and attack America or her interests, Obama won't survive the political fallout. 

Czuch:  Besides that, Al Gore's science flies in the face of real science anyway.  He just ignores all the evidence to the contrary and forges ahead.  Well, at least he has a platform now (global warming is more about Al Gore than it is about facts - and now he has to save his face after an award from Hollow Wood and a Notsonoble Peace Booby-Prize.