Pason69: shouldn't the discussion be more golbal, since the [timeout/resign] problem affects every game.

It's much more of a problem in a Triple than in ordinary round-robins because of the special scoring. In a standard round-robin a timeout in a match is a single match. That's not good but a single resignation or timeout in a Triple tourney is worth 5 ordinary matches. If you had experience of the real thing (ie. TTTs) then you'd know that that's major.

Only way would be to make one timeout spread and let the player lose all his/her games

.. which is what nabla said: "he or she automatically forfeits all games with maximal scores, even the already finished ones" .. which is what I posted in the first place as the official rule: "the TTT rules remove a player who ... they and all their games are no longer part of the tournament (whether that's total removal or just not contributing to the scoring)", except that the scored outcome is zero rather than maximum. But the player does get to play the remaining matches. They are not forfeited, only the score.

Stop woory, be happy!

Lol. There's no need for you to worry about my happiness. I play TTTs at DailyGammon and they work well for the "just for fun" players and also the "competitive for fun" players. I'll continue to enjoy those. My aim here was to report the problem and explain it in sufficient detail that people can begin to understand it. That's done as far as I'm concerned.

Thad: Fischer clock is more apt to cause more time outs... that is the reason I no longer join those tournaments..

Pason69: One thing that would hlep is to allow timed-out games to be restarted. Of course the opponent would have to agree to it. Other sites work similarly.

Another thing that might hlep is to use the Fischer clock.

playBunny:
People who time out against only some players is a problem in TTT. However, it's also a problem in all other games, even though the "award" for winning a game is less (ie always the same). So, shouldn't the discussion be more golbal, since the problem affects every game.

I think it's impossible to solve to everyones satisfaction. Only way would be to make one timeout spread and let the player lose all his/her games, and that's a bad, but maybe fair, solution.

I play to win, but most important is still the challenges and all the things I learn. I will keep playing TTT and other games, and enjoy it. Sometimes I will get "lucky" and get an easy win, sometimes unlucky and my "worst" competitor will. Both ways, I'll have a great time! Stop woory, be happy!

lovelysharon: No worries, me lovely. These things happen and it's not a question of blaming. And certainly I'd cut off my paws before even considering that you'd do something like this deliberately.

But it is a problem with the format that it's vulnerable to upsets of this nature. Your busyness has brought the matter to light, that's all. It's going to be a concern in future Triple until it's addressed.

And it's a definite problem. In a TTT or Triple, coming second, third, etc, does mean something (for all but the most competitive of players). Resignations and timeouts can thus change the outcome for many of the players in the tourney, not just who wins.

Ivaylo: lovelysharon's unfortunate timeouts have awarded several players with a backgammon. That 5 points is a considerable advantage to the subset of players who got it. In contrast, just_for_fun timed out in all his matches and everyone got 5 points - but no advantage.

General note: The fact that I and Alan are the only ones lost to lovelysharon is immaterial. (well done, Sharon, dammit! ) This isn't a personal complaint but a concern for the format. If could affect a prize tourney and that won't do any good.

look it guys .. I'm sorry I timed out.. it wasn't intentional... I just got busy with other aspects of life.... I was shocked when I finally logged on and found out i timed out in that many games... I don't use the auto vacation day function in order to use them when i really need them...

alanback: I am confused. What's wrong with her games? Can't see anything unusual.

AlliumCepa:  Well, not really, as a person wishing to resign could simply allow his match to time out.  The current situation actually involves timeouts (presumably unintentional) and not resignations.  See the link below (player #10)

Unrated Triple Gammon

alanback: What if we don't have the Resign option within a TTT games? It is simply disabled. That would solve the problem partially.

Thad: LOL, that's a good one!

nabla: What if a player is legitimately going to get backgammoned and resigns. The system would need to handle that. Or worse yet, what if a player is likely to get gammoned, but not guaranteed and resigns. How do you score that?

nabla:  That would work.

alanback: Moreover, the slower you play, the better equity you have to collect points due to timeouts / resigns. It could lead people to play as slow as possible.
It could be a general rule in all tournaments that when somebody timeouts or resigns a backgammon, he or she automatically forfeits all games with maximal scores, even the already finished ones.

playBunny:  Playing without this rule makes it pointless to have tournaments under this format, since it will almost always be the case that someone in such a large group will time out, resign too soon, etc.  Now that you've pointed it out, I'm going to cancel the triple gammon tournament I just created recently.

playBunny:  Now I understand, and I agree.

alanback: There are no TTTs here. A player who resigns matches or times out can change the whole outcome ... - is how it works in the Triple Gammon tournaments. The TTT rules that I described are how that problem is dealt with in a TTT.

playBunny:  Are you saying that's the way it works here, or that it should work that way?

Because it certainly does not seem to be working that way.

A player who resigns matches or times out can change the whole outcome of a Triple Gammon tournament.

It's okay if they do it for everyone but when they only do with a selection of players it adds 5 points to the lucky ones (or the friends in the case of manipulations), whereas those whose matches with them have finished will have gained nothing, a single point or maybe 3 or only rarely, the backgammon's full 5.

Timeouts cannot be prevented but resigning matches is not an option in TTTs unless the player withdraws completely.

To prevent a player from spoiling the tournament, the TTT rules remove a player who inadvertantly or deliberately adds dollops of points to people's scores in this way. They may continue to play out the remaining games if they wish, but they and all their games are no longer part of the tournament (whether that's total removal or just not contributing to the scoring).

playBunny: ah thanks!!!!
thats true .. i forgot about 0 and double or 1 and double which is also sufficient :)

thad and abigailll thanks as well! when i tought it over last night (in my head wihle lying in bed) the chance of 1/3 + 1/3 sounded very nice .. but i knew i was wrong .. in my head i also came to 17/162 by pure match .. but it had big numbers in it so i could easily have mistaken myself :)

btw i forgot about a double 6 being ok as well as tric trac will also make you move double 1 on that roll .. or 1+2 on a roll which also gives double 1 .. hmm the double 6 doesnt work as i would have to move the 6 first .. but 1+2 does work .. ok i am a bit confusing today .. i am suffering from it myself as well :)

thanks!!

Hrqls: It would be 10/36 * 10/36 if all you want is exactly one 1 on each of the two rolls. But if you want at least two ones in two rolls, the chance is 1/36 + 10/36 * 11/36 + 25/36 * 1/36 == 171/1296 == 0.132. After all, you should consider rolling two 1s on either the first or the second roll.

Hrqls:

A single 1 followed by single or double 1      10/36 * 11/36 = 110/1296
Or a double 1                                   1/36         =  36/1296
Or no ones followed by a double 1              25/36 *  1/36 =  25/1296
                                                               ========
                                                               171/1296 = 13%

Hrqls: You want to roll a 1 on two consecutive rolls? Assuming it's ok to roll a pair of 1s, then your calculation of 11/36 * 11/36 (about 0.0933) is correct. So you have about a nine and one third percent chance of rolling at least one 1 on two consecutive turns.

Remember, probability (or chance) is winners divided by total. In this case, a winner is a roll containing a 1, and you were correct that there are eleven of them. There are thirty six total ways of rolling a pair of dice.

Also, when dealing with two disjoint probabilities, simply multiply them together (as you did).

Hope that hleps.

what is the chance of rolling a 1 ?
i think its 11/36 ?

what is the chance of rolling a 1 in 2 moves after another ? (rolling 2 1s in total)
is that 11/36 * 11/36 ?

or can i determine it this way :
(lets assume the chance of rolling a 1 in 1 move is 1/3 to make the calculation a bit easier, and ignore the rule of big numbers)
so i roll a 1 in 3 rolls, for the next move i roll a 1 in 3 rolls as well giving me 2 1's in 6 rolls .. which would lead to a chance of 1/6 to roll a 1 in 2 moves directly after another ? .. hmm .. this doesnt feel right in a lot of aspects .. but i can put my finger on it exactly :)

i am asking this because i am playing tric trac on another site and want to know what my chance is to bear off 2 pieces on the 1 position .. i think its 10/36 * 10/36 + 1/36 = 17/162 ?

alanback: Thanks, I'll take a look.

fakar10:  There's some discussion here:  http://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?19084  Don't know if it's helpful.

You can see examples on dailygammon. What I'm wondering is if someone has a script (I know there's some scripters among us), or another easy method of fixing it.

alanback: It needs an extra "move" in the beginning of each game to indicate the nackgammon starting position.

fakar10:  Fixing it in what way?

Does anyone know a quick and easy way of fixing a nackgammon mat-file from bk?

AbigailII: It's hardly anti-backgammon if it's over in less than forever.

fakar10: Over a year and a half old.

fakar10: Oh, you play against zimmermann! Please accept my condolences...

(that was not a complaint, btw)

One year old today. :)

Hrqls:It still depends on what is thrown but i find that if you have a back point then you are less likely to be blocked out and have to wait to be let back in.

is a backgame the way to win a game of cloning gammon ?
in normal backgammon i only go for a backgame when i am in serious trouble already ... but i see some high ranked players on here aim for a backgame from the start

in the first games against these players i didnt notice and lost .. now i notice it from the start but i am still playing it as i normally would to see what would happen

what does everyone think of a backgame in cloning gammon ?

gambler104:  But does anyone know how it is actually set up here?

alanback: I would presume that you would get 1 point for a win in which you bear at least one checker off, three points for a win in which you bear no pieces off and of course 0 for the loss

Andersp: I think you make a valid point.

If a 1900 bkr beats a 2200 bkr, then it is called luck. If a 2200 bkr beats a 1900 bkr it is called skill.

But the better point is that a person with a 2200 bkr probably got that by being lucky themselves anyway, so doesnt it all work out in the end? On this site, at least after a person has played a certain amount of games, the person with a higher bkr is probably a better player, yet having a high bkr doesnt mean that they won all their games by skill alone either!

    I notice that it is possible to create a triple anti backgammon tournament.  I'm wondering how the scoring system works in such a case.

Dear everybody,



Please remember that gammons DO count in Triple Gammon tournaments.  Even though
each match is a single game, the scoring takes gammons and backgammons
into account.  Therefore, do not resign a game before you have borne
off a checker, if you have any chance of doing so.  Similarly, do not
resign if you still have checkers on the bar or in your opponent's home
table.  You will be giving your opponent points he or she may not have
earned if the game were played to conclusion.



(This just happened to me, an opponent resigned too soon.  I might have gotten the gammon, but it was not assured.)

If you belong to Dailygammon, check this tourney idea out.  The purpose is to minimize the effect of luck.

http://www.dailygammon.com/bg/forum2/main/read/18423#9

In any particular backgammon match, it's always possible to say that the outcome was determined by luck, since if the dice had been different the winner might have lost.  However, it's not possible to say that about 100 matches between the same players; the better player should win the majority of games, because the dice WILL more or less even out over that span.

Andersp: If you win against someone who is 2200 it means... well, not much, since the BK rating formula is inaccurate for backgammon anyway !

AbigailII: Your logic is unfaulty ! However, things can be seen for another point of view : cubed backgammon IS backgammon, and single games are the degenerated case of matches to one point.
I take "degenerated" for its mathematical meaning, it is not supposed to be insulting to one-pointer lovers :-)

But of course you are basically right, there isn't a bigger difference between Triple and Single than between Cubed and Single.

Andersp: only if its against me .. ;)

Andersp:  I'm sure you are not stupid, just pretending to be ;-)

If I lose to a lower rated player, it may be that he or she played better than I on this occasion, or because the dice favored him or her.  Similarly, if I win a backgammon match, it may be because of the dice or because I played better.  In chess, it's almost always a matter of skill, though there can be occasions I am sure when a player with less overall chess playing ability outplays a better player. 

The point about backgammon is that the player is only partly in control, due to the random element.  Thus, a rating in backgammon is not so much a prediction about the outcome of a single match, as it is a prediction about the outcome of a large number of matches.  Given a sufficiently large sample, the luck factor will even out and the player with greater skill will win a majority of the games.

My BKR is the result of a mathematical formula being applied to the results of my games.  Some of those games were won or lost primarily on skill, others on luck.  I offer no conclusion as to the interpretation of the backgammon BKRs on this site.

I hope that clarifies it, in case you were not just pretending ;-)