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20. veebruar 2009, 08:23:08
The Usurper 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
Artful Dodger: You are correct, the Bible has nothing directly to do with public policy. And thank goodness for that! May Church & State ever remain separated.

It is people who make public policy. Some of them are atheists, yes. My father was an atheist, and a fine man to boot. People, however, are influenced by any number of things. Christians are reportedly influenced by their sacred texts. I would assume, and hope, that the Bible would inspire those who honor it, to be moved by the same pity God is presented therein as being moved by, when they contribute to public policy making.

To me, a plea from pity is a very sound argument. It is basic human kindness. I believe there is a hard, cold edge to your viewpoint, if you can't see the soundness in it. I also believe such pity is more "adaptable" for the human species, in an evolutionary sense. It inspires behavior & interaction that will make our earth sustainable for generations to come. To the contrary, it is pitilessness, or disregard, and the policies enacted or neglected because of it, which most threaten our survival.

I realize that "socialism" is a dirty word to you. Perhaps you have a visceral reaction when you think it, speak it or read it. You have been enculturated, as we all are. In any case, the word doesn't offend me. Label my ideas (not really mine) as you please. You can call them Communist or Satanist for that matter. If they will save lives, they are pretty good ones.

20. veebruar 2009, 08:31:17
Papa Zoom 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
The Usurper:You don't change an entire health care system on a hypothetical.  Where in the US has a child died because he/she didn't have access to health care?  There are free clinics in every state.  And even at our clinic, the one in my small town, there is a sign on the wall that all people are served regardless of ability to pay.  It's that way all over the US.   Some places try to get out of helping nonpaying patients, but many if not most don't.  At any rate, your pity play doens't work because it's not how our system works.  It's a nice strawman and I'm sure it gets those who share your view to nod their heads.  But it's not reality.

If you can't argue universal health care on all it's aspects and merits, then you  have nothing to say.  One hypothetical plea from pity isn't an argument of any substance.

20. veebruar 2009, 08:47:25
The Usurper 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
Artful Dodger:

"Although previous reports have documented that rates of low birthweight and intrauterine growth retardation are higher among infants of women living in poverty, the infant mortality risk among infants born to women with low incomes has not been characterized recently. To analyze the relation between parental low income and infant mortality, CDC analyzed data from the 1988 National Maternal and Infant Health Survey (NMIHS) (the most recent data available). This report presents the findings of the analysis and indicates that for women with household incomes below the poverty level * in 1988, the infant mortality rate was 60% higher and the postneonatal mortality rate was twice as high as those for women living above poverty level."

"An infant death was defined as the death of a live-born infant before his or her first birthday; a neonatal death, as the death of a live-born infant less than 28 days after birth; and a postneonatal death, as the death of a live-born infant 28-364 days after birth."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00039818.htm

20. veebruar 2009, 09:01:07
The Usurper 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
Artful Dodger:

Causes of Newborn Deaths

"Most newborn deaths could be prevented if women had access to basic health care such as; immunizations to protect expectant mothers and newborns against tetanus, skilled midwifery care during childbirth, timely and appropriate treatment of newborn infections, and proper attention to hygiene, warmth, and breastfeeding for new babies."

http://www.savethechildren.org/programs/health/saving-newborn-lives/rates.html

This article is admittedly discussing world-wide poverty, and not focused on the U.S. But the same principles apply. Proper health care saves lives. Lack of it results in deaths.

Now I also admit the website I have posted from here is biased. It is called "Save the Children," and naturally is biased in favor of doing just that. :o)

20. veebruar 2009, 13:19:38
Czuch 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
The Usurper: Proper health care saves lives. Lack of it results in deaths.

...and has been proven, socialized health care can result in death by waiting, and at least where i live, all mothers and children already receive free health care, and no person is ever denied care based on their ability to pay!

20. veebruar 2009, 13:14:51
Czuch 
Teema: Re: "Your Bible quotes are meaningless on me"
The Usurper: If they will save lives, they are pretty good ones.


Well, the problem you miss is that even if lives are saved in the short run with your socialized ideas, what if in the end they ruin or destroy a whole country????? A country so dependent on its government, after the government has collapsed, after the economy is ruined, after there are no more fat cats left to pay for your programs after we are all pounded into middle class oblivion, then what? You will personally be long ago dead, happy in your death that you saved someones life with your socialist compassion, but the people generations from now who suffer because your socialized ideals have so weakened a country that more suffer than ever before?

You have no proof that this is not the destiny of your social democracy gone so wrong, is there?

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