Purple: Interesting. Nice job too!

playBunny: In the distant past I had a FS called the Killing Machine where we climbed to the top of the checker ratings. On the way we encountered many program users and our team was not only able to detect who was using them but which particular program they were using. At first we tried to avoid such people but before long we had assembled enough brilliant young program busters where we took them on at their own game and defeated them. Lots of effort and hardly recommended but it is possible to identify the cheaters. :)

nabla: Yes, it's impossible to detect, especially as it would only be done for an occasion move but it would be as well to spell it out in the User Agreement. Whenever someone's asked something like that on the Backgammon board it's been pointed out that the game is in progress and it would be unfair, but most often the person asking knows this and asks after the move anyway. If someone's playing me and they want me to advise them on what's best for their next move, lol, well, we can cheat together and hope that nobody tells! :-))

Czuch: Shhhhhh! Yes, detecting computer cheating is unenforceable from a practical point of view. So are most of the scams that the few cheaters employ as there's only one Fencer and he's a mite busy most of the time, lol. But there are curious and alert players here who stumble across these things on occasion.

(Note that an account where the playing is done solely by a computer and this is made known - that should not be seen as cheating. It's more the provision of a fine opponent for those who want to challenge it.)

playBunny: Okay,my bad on the program ppart! I thought I had remembered in the past that Fencer said since it could not be enforced.... although, how is it enforced? Anyway, as long as it is mad eplain to members about the rake etc, I guess it s a buyer beware, and if you dont like it dont play it!

playBunny: If I understand the present tournament system correctly, I also find it perfectly acceptable. The general ideas of tournaments with entry fees and prize money are :
1) To attract strong players by giving them the possibility to win some money.
2) To attract weaker players that have no chance to win a prize by giving them the possibility to play strong players against some little money.
That the organizer takes away 30% of prizes does not cancel any of these two reasons. And in fact, in our case these 30% could well be explained by the time, energy and potential loss of image for the site induced by fighting cheats :-)

On a different note, now that I read the user agreement again, it is indeed very clear about computer use, but shouldn't it also state that it is illegal to get counseled by another player ? I know that this one is hard to check, but it wouldn't hurt to make it clear to fair players that might not be aware of it, would it ?

Czuch: Using a program to analyse what's already happened in a game isn't illegal but using one to make your moves most certainly is.

I also think that a 30% rake-off is high. Ih fact it's considerably higher than on any of the proper gambling sites. But then Fencer isn't competing with these; this isn't a gambling site. I rather think these tournaments are just to add a flavour of excitement for those that want it. True, there will to be people going into these tourneys blindly but I suspect that most of the ones who have a decent chance to win will know what they're doing. Those with no chance would be in it for the fun and would have already written off 100% of their stake anyway. A win for them would thus be a huge and unexpected bonus!

I seriously doubt that there's the makings of a big scam here. For a start these tournaments aren't going to be flooded by people and money, plus they'll take forver to complete, just like ordinary tournaments. So I'd say the opportunity is a small one. If someone were consistently winning (especially in a luck-based game) then sooner or later they'd come under scrutiny and would likely be found out. But assume that these problems don't exist and someone was able to win a lot without detection .. there's then the problem of "laundering" the Brains - finding people who'll fork over the cash to the scammer instead of purchasing through Fencer. That's likely to be a lot more work that it's worth.

As a comparison of sorts. At VogClub, a non-gambling Chess/Backgammon site there are also money tournaments (Vog "tokens" equivalent to 1 cent). These have an entry fee of 2 tokens and a stake of 10 or 50 tokens. The 10-token ones have a high rake-off (20%) but 12 cents is cheap enough that you wouldn't care too much. Despite this they're very underpopulated. I've played in three-player tournaments (and lost to a beginner! ). I'd imagine that here, when people realise that it costs $1.50 to enter a money tourney, they will see it as only an occasional treat.

playBunny: LOL, I dont think that using a program on this site is considered cheating....

My initial reaction to this whole new brain tournament system is not a good one. Fencer sells you brains to use in a tournament and then he takes 30% of them away when you join a tournament, and a tournament I just looked at for an example you need o get second place just to break even. So the only logical reason to play one of these tournamnets is if you are sure to win. That will be a good incentive to use a program to play your moves for you, along with the potential to seell these brains for cash. It has shades of illegal gambling, as well as being a big scam!

I know that nobody is forced to join these tournaments, nor purchase brains. But I think many people are going to be naiive about these potential pitfalls....

lol

Czuch: Win-win. It sure is - except when I turn you in for cheating. I could have won that tournament! Apart from that bit, though, it sounds entirely reasonable to use your Brains to pay for someone else's membership in return for cash.

So how much discount did you have in mind? Will you have enough Brains by June?

playBunny: You would give me cash to pay for your new membership, except not as much cash as it already would cost you for that membership! I have got my brains for free or for winning tournaments with my new computer program, and you are going to buy amembership anyway, so its a win win situation for both of us!

Czuch: Who to? If I gave you some money how would I receive your Brains?

What is to keep someone who has many brains (brainking brains) from selling them for cash?

Do you like pente?Or Lines?Or five in line?Join this,if you want...
http://brainking.cz/cz/Tournaments?trg=13599&trnst=0

rabbitoid: Yeah, what ROd said - umm, btw, why don't you try that in our game? I could use the help.

rabbitoid: One thing you can do, if you want to know for sure how many points you will lose, is to click on resign, and it will tell you right there how many points you will lose, if you don't like it, you can change your mind and not resign..(Brainking makes you confirm that you really want to resign)

Bluefin: You are not alone. It has been world class slow all day.

rabbitoid: If you are playing with the cube, so that gammons count, you should not resign until you have borne off at least one checker. The system awards points based on the board position at the time of resignation. So, if you have no checkers out, you will lose a gammon or backgammon.

Also, I have been assuming that I should not resign until the move after I bear off my first checker.

alanback: further question: if I resign, I lose how many points? say the cube is still on 1, but I don't have any stones out yet. If I resign do I lose a gammon? I hope so, otherwise it's too easy to avoid a gammon.

Thanks everyone, I don't get thrown out,it's just getting here, then making moves. I'm in central US. I'll just keep trying.

Bluefin: been having loads of that here in the UK over the last month ... im on 2.2meg adsl. I get thrown from the site regulally every day a few times

Bluefin: No problem here, T1 connection though. Eastern US.

Anyone having problems besides me? Super slow going anywhere on this site. Can't get in to most of my games. the ones I do get to, I can't make a move ?? webtv user. I cleared catch and cookies.

pauloaguia: Oh, I didn't realize that!

alanback: Czech Republic is not in the Euro system (yet)

Since your rates are stated in euro, what do exchange rates have to do with anything?

nabla: Ah, that adds up...thanks.

Summertop: This is because it was a double round robin. *For each game you won* (as there was no draw), add the number of points of your opponent (that means, count twice the points of the opponents that you beated twice) and you will get 29.
Probably the explanations were thought with a simple round robin tournament in mind.

What counts is the total number of points earned by the opponents you beat. You and Uil had the same record except that you won both games from grafzahl while Uil went 1-1 against him; and Uil won both games from Seravajan, while you split with him. Grafzahl finished with 5 points, and Seravajan finished with 7. You earned 17 S-B points for your games against these two, while Uil earned 19 S-B points. That is why he has 2 more S-B points than you do.

pauloaguia: Well, that's what I thought...Look at my Tournament.

ALL of the points add up to 30. Yet, Uil got a S-B score of 31 and I got 29. So again, I don't see what "points" are added up?

Of course, it's not your points that matter, but the ones of the opponents you beat in the tournament. So, if you won those 3 games to opponents that ended up with 2, 3 and 4 points respectively and the draw was to a player who has 1 points, your final SB will be 2 + 3 + 4 + 1/2 = 9,5. Hope it's better explained now

Summertop: The "points" are the points you end the tournament with. If you win 3 games and draw another, you'll have 3 and a half points. These are the points that are used to calculate SB score.

Summertop: Just the game in progress.

Another question...In Multi-Game matches such as Backgammon, when you resign, are you resigning the specific game or the entire match?

harley: Yes and no...I understand the concept. But what "points" are added to get the actual S-B score? In my tournament, I didn't readily see anything that added up.

In the FAQ's it says;

What does "S-B" column at tournament tables mean?

S-B is an abbreviation for Sonneborn-Berger system. It is used to specify an order of players with the same number of points and is based on a theory that points earned with a stronger opponent are more valuable than with a weaker one. The S-B value is a total sum of points of opponents who lost the tournament game with the player and half points of opponents who drawn the tournament game with the player. Only if two or more players have the same number of "normal" and S-B points, they share the same final order.

http://brainking.com/en/FAQ?ht=19

Hope that helps?

Summertop: Oh, wait...it has nothing to do with losses. He beat a higher ranked player. Whereas, I beat a lower ranked player. But then again, playing each other...didn't offset the other games. I would still like to know what "points" are added up, though.

Can someone explain the Sonneborn-Berger system as implemented in Tournaments? It basically says it is the sum of points of the players that I beat (1/2 points if drawn). And, points earned with stronger players are more valuable than those from weaker players. What "points" are actually used to calculate it?

In the link provided for a tournament I am in, I and Uil tied in points. We played each other twice and split the games. Since he is ranked higher (better player), shouldn't I have I higher S-B score? Also, we each lost one more game. The opponent I lost too had a higher rating (better player) than the one Uil lost to. So again, shouldn't I have a higher S-B score? After that we each beat the same opponents... Uil, is a great player and I don't really care about the outcome. I would just like to know how it is calculated.

Maybe simplify...if we both beat every other player, but split the two games (we each won one). Who would have the higher S-B score? and why?

Bry: Only new memberships count. It means, your own renewal does not.

Fencer: Can we receive Brains for our own membership renewals? - like a loyalty bonus?

I see that if a member who you referred initially renews, that doesn't count, but what about our own renewal?

Fencer: That, I always knew!

Bry: No. What you buy, you get. It's up to you how you use it. You can spend Brains to extend your membership or purchase a membership for another user. You can save them for a later use. Or you can pay a tournament entry fee with them and hope you will be one of the winners and win a thousand or two. But, as I always say, it's just an option and everyone can use all advantages and features of BrainKing without any Brains.

Fencer: So, in theory, if I buy 150 Brains at 5 Euro, I am only actually buying 105 Brains for 5 Euro, because 30% of them will "disappear" if I use them?

playBunny: Yes.

Fencer: That' a bit unclear but it sounds as if you're saying the 30% becomes yours.

Bry: The 30% goes nowhere. In other words, it remains on the BrainKing account.

In a tournament where you use Brains to enter..... why is the maximum prize fund of Brains only 70% of the amount used to enter?

Why are 100% of Brains used to enter used in the prize fund?

Where does the other 30% go?, bearing in mind people may have paid money to purchase them to be used in a tournament.

Czuch Chuckers: Heh heh. Very funny.

Czuch Chuckers: