The reality in all this gun debate is that guns are a symptom but not the disease. The real problem lies in human nature itself. We could take aways guns, knives, swords, machetes, etc. People would still go out and beat each other to a pulp with bare fists. We could chop off people's arms, and they would still kill each other with their teeth.

Human beings are the only animal that preys on its own species, and we do it for fun. We are nature's mistake. We have a brain. We know logically that fighting and killing are wrong. Yet we still fight and kill each other. We tell ourselves we do it for some higher principle, but that is just our excuse because we refuse to admit that we do it for the fun of it.

We are so insane that we have enough weapons to kill every living thing on this planet, and we still deceive ourselves into believing that we have all those weapons for "self-defense", "national security", or some non-existent abstract ideology.

We spend more money on weapons and weapons research than we spend on curing cancer or HIV, or than we spend on helping the poor. I see all these "good Christians" and "good Moslems" and "good whatevers" who care more about protecting their rights to own guns, or their right to get rich, but who would do precious little to help a hungry child anywhere else in the world. These people will say in the same breath that they love God, and that they will defend the right to own guns. I suppose there is no contradiction in saying that they believe in "God is love" and "you deserve to own a weapon".

Human beings are naturally selfish and cruel. That is the disease. Using guns to kill is merely a symptom of that disease. Take away guns and people will still find yet other weapons to kill with.

Take a piece of paper and quickly write down 10 ways to kill people:

Guns, knives, axes, swords, grenades, tanks, war planes, nuclear bombs, bare fists, kicking, poison, anthrax, mustard gas, a rope, etc.

That took 20 seconds.

Now, quickly write down 10 ways to save a hungry child:

Give money, give food ...

I think I am stumped.

Artful Dodger:

> I've never heard the loony left complain about cars in the way they complain about guns.

I work as a bus driver. Every day I see every stupid mistake that people make when they drive. Sometimes I wonder how it is that people don't get killed more often by cars. If making stupid driving mistakes led to losing one's driver's license, I think at least 50% of the people out there would not deserve to have a license at all. It would be good in a way. More people would walk and get their daily exercise.

Übergeek 바둑이:I come from a family of hunters.I was taught responsibility. There are some major nut jobs out there. what you suggest is to disarm the people, so only the nutjobs will have weapons,because where theres a will...theres a way!
last year a teenager accidentally shot another teenager. We also lost 6 more in motor vehicle accidents.
it happens.we still drive.

Übergeek 바둑이: some people can't/won't see common sense.

Tuesday:

> That's extreme.

That is my point. It is extreme to believe that somehow people have the right to own a weapon that could kill somebody. But then, a handgun is acceptable, but not an automatic assault rifle. I suppose killing 1 person with a handgun is an acceptable risk, but killing 100 with a machine gun is not.

In the World there are more guns than people. I think that is extreme too. Nobody wants to accept the truth. People kill people, and guns just make it easier to do so.

"In sharp contrast to most other developed nations, firearms laws in the United States are permissive and private gun ownership is common, with about 40% of households containing at least one firearm. In fact, there are more privately owned firearms in the United States than in any other nation, both per capita and in total."

Now, just based on pure statistics, if you live in the USA, 4 out of every 10 houses in your neighborhood probably has a firearm. 40% is a big number. If 0.01 % of the population has some mental defect, there are enough firearms to make sure that a lot of people will get killed.

Then we look at the problems of Mexico and Central America with gun running, drug traficking and organized crime. Violence is being fuelled by easy availability.

If manufacturing and selling guns were illegal, who would make the guns? Criminals would have to resort to the old cloak and dagger. It is a lot harder to kill 10 people with a knife. But then, guns are OK.

Mélusine: A broom can kill... The Chinese worked out diversity of weapon shape millennium ago.

A chef's iron??

Übergeek 바둑이: Harold Shipman was a doctor.. he used his position as a weapon .. trust allowed him to kill over 200.

Guns don't kill, but the ease of access along with the ease of use makes killing easier for those of the deposition to kill. Along with it being considered by some a 'macho' weapon leads to it being a weapon of choice.

.. If a country is to have guns.. fine. But let full registration and analysis to make sure your not going to kill rather than defend with it.

Mélusine:

> Anyway, I could take the sickle for my garden and easily kill someone with it !

A person could take a chopstick out of a Chinese restaurant and kill somebody with it.

Violence is more complex than people think. Sometimes violence is carried out by individuals (such as serial killers), sometimes by social groups (such as terrorists, armies, etc.) Sometimes violence is unjustified (such as a serial killer murdering an innocent person) and sometimes we justify it (for example, self-defense, or some higher ideological principle.)

Why do people buy guns?

- Hunting: in the past it may have been a necessity, in this day and age it is mostly as a "sport", something done for entertainment

- Fear: people don't feel safe, so they buy a gun for self-protection. Sometimes the fear is justified, sometimes it is psychological (paranoia)

- Violent tendencies: some people buy guns as a means to prove to themselves or others that they are tough. For example, military wannabes who wear camouflage and carry weapons, even though they are not in the military.

- Criminal intent: people buy guns with the express purpose of committing a crime

- Entertainment: some people buy guns as a toy, then they head off to the firing range on weekends to play with their toy. They will never hunt, or be in the military, or commit a crime. They are merely playing with a dangerous toy.

- Stupidity: some people buy a gun and they don't even know why. Then they are really surprised when somebody gets hurt with their gun.

- Psycopathy: some people buy guns because they enjoy killing others. Their predatory instincts lead them to kill other human beings.

Ther are others reasons for sure. Of all these I listed, I don't see much justification, except for self-defense.

Hunting might be a sport, but wouldn't going out to play baseball be better? There are cases where controlling the population of an animal might be necessary since its natural predators are gone, or the animal was introduced from elsewhere (such as rabbits and cats in Australia). Hunting as a sport might be thrilling and fun, until some "accident" happens (such as Dick Cheney shooting his friend, or some animal being hunted to extinction). I have a friend who killed his son in a hunting accident. After 30 years he is still a psychological mess. I suppose there is such as thing as responsible hunting. Still, there is plenty of beef in the supermarket!

Some people truly fear for their life. They are under threat from somebody else. Self-defense is justified, but only when the threat is true. If the fear is very general (such as fear that some day a criminal might come into my upper middle class neighborhood), then it is likely more paranoia than justified fear.

People who buy guns to show off, or to have a "cool toy" are just plain stupid. That is the kind of people who treat weapons without giving them the respect and responsibility they deserve.

Criminals and psycophaths belong behind bars. It is those people who ruin everything for everybody else.

In France, it's more difficult to buy a weapon but it's not a problem for me : I don't use some !
Anyway, I could take the sickle for my garden and easily kill someone with it !
The important question is : why do people buy weapons ?

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Automatic assault rifles don't kill people. People kill people.

TNT doesn't kill people. People kill people.

Warplanes don't kill people. People kill people.

Bacteriological and viral agents don't kill people. People kill people.

Nuclear bombs don't kill people. People kill people.

I don't want some antidemocratic, fascist big government telling me whether I can own a gun or not.

Just as I don't want some antidemocratic, fascist big government telling me whether I can own ANY weapons or not.

But then, it is perfectly OK for a good Christian to defend the right of people to buy and own guns. Good Christians support and join the NRA.

Tuesday:

> Hold the person accountable for their actions, not the means they chose to utilize

Then why restrict any weapons at all? We hold the person accountable, but not the automatic assault rifle, or the company that makes a profit manufacturing it, or the retailer that makes a profit selling it.

By your logic, people should be free to buy fully automatic machine guns. A person should be able to buy an Uzi at Walmart, then it is OK, because it is not the gun the problem, but the killer behind the gun.

Not only that, but a person should be able to buy dynamite freely, because it is not dynamite the problem, but the insane idiot who buys it.

If that is the case, a person should be able to buy a nuclear bomb. If a person blows up a city, it is not nuclear weapons the problem, but the insane idiots who use them.

So a person should be free to open a business and sell machine guns, explosives and even WMDs. The logic is that the problem is not the availability of weapons, but the people who use them.

Jared Loughner... anti government.. thought there was "mind control"...

Just plain nutter, or found a cause in 'politics'.

.... One interviewer questioned the Tea party and others on the right wing with their use of posters with pics of opponents with cross hairs say "the next target" .. it maybe that some just cannot understand metaphor's and treat everything as literal.

... The Bankers bonuses are due soon. Billions....

The best at the moment is a declaration that the banks will pay out less than they would have..

....MP David Chaytor has been jailed for 18 months for expenses fraud. yet the private firms hide behind the table... or under it... or behind the 'board'.

maybe we should bring back 'stocks'.

The USA's Fed gov report on the BP disaster came to the expected conclusion (except for the right wing conspiracy nutters)

... BAD MANAGEMENT AND COST CUTTING.

The only part that the Fed Gov has been criticised is on not enough regulation.

... In Northern Ireland people have been without drinking water through the lack of maintenance of the mains pipes by the private water company who's patch it is.

.. Cost cutting ..

yet profit margins and share prices generally are more important.

ScarletRose: went to do my weekly grocery shop this AM and there were nothing on the shelves at the supermarket.....hardly any vegies/fruit and the groceries are running a bit thin....road and rail is closed so no deliveries and becasue all our stuff comes from down sth we suffer that way :(

thanks anyway

Bernice:  I had been rather busy the passed several months and as of late.. been seeing the films on the news regarding the flooding.. I had been wondering about you. I actually meant to contact you privately.. although, I am getting on this site so late anymore just to hurry and catch up my games.. Glad to see you haven't washed away.. sorry to learn though of the terrible mess.. how awful that would be.. I can't even imagine..

Keep some drift wood handy and try to stay dry..

ScarletRose: thanks for aking....we were flooded in on Xmas day and nth of us is still badly flooded and sth of us is in a terrible way....they are saying another 2 weeks before the evacuees will be able to go back to their homes which are currently under water.
We had a terrible storm last night which doesnt affect us but goes into the catchment areas which are already over full and causing all the flooding sth of us.

Bernice:  not to distract others from your statement.. I just wanted to ask if you were being affected with all the flooding over on your side of the globe??

I hear on the news this morning where China has increased its military power massively and they say it is unsettling the region...Korea is the problem, they are very volatile. We were brought up to the following slogan..."Beware the yellow peril" It wont happen in my lifetime but it will happen

The Col:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bERkPQ6Elvw

(V): bagpipe players?

The Col: Yes.. look for the ones wearing stockings!!

(V): Are their behavioral characteristics?
If there are thousands infected without knowledge, how are they spotted? and should authorities be alerted?

Deadly cat-flea typhus strikes in Australia
ANGELA POWNALL, The West Australian January 3, 2011, 2:10 am

Scientists have identified the first known cases of humans being infected with cat-flea typhus in Australia, four years after the R. felis bacteria was discovered in fleas in WA.

A nine-year-old girl became seriously ill in Melbourne and her younger sister and brother, grandmother and neighbour had to be taken to hospitalafter they were bitten by fleas carrying the R. felis bacteria from kittens the family brought into their home.

Microbiologists warned in the latest edition of the Medical Journal of Australia published today that many more Australians might have been infected by R. felis, but did not get the most effective treatment because the infection was not diagnosed.

Dr Stephen Graves, director of microbiology at the Hunter Valley Pathology Service in Newcastle, NSW, said GPs and hospitals did not use diagnostic tests that were available for R. felis, which could be treated with antibiotics.

"It's likely to be present all over Australia, I suspect. It's just that people haven't looked for it," Dr Graves said. "This little girl was really quite sick and in intensive care. She may have died if she had not got the right antibiotics ultimately."

There are numerous different types of rickettsia disease, which is a type of bacteria that is found in parasites such as fleas and ticks. Dr Graves said murine typhus, a rickettsia infection from rat fleas, was particularly common in WA.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/8588207/deadly-cat-flea-typhus-strikes-in-australia/

Bernice: It says copyright 2009 at the bottom an in the notes you'll see references to sources published after 2K.

Including such as ...
A hand up not a hand out: Renewing the fight against poverty (Report on poverty and financial hardship)

11 March 2004
© Commonwealth of Australia 2004
ISBN 0 642 71199 2
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/clac_ctte/completed_inquiries/2002-04/poverty/report/index.htm

A bit hard if the link is "10 years old"!!

Bernice: Aye.. because most Brits are just use flu to being just part of the yearly cycle of winter... they tuck up and drink honey and lemon!!

A 15 month-long Australian Senate inquiry, entitled “A hand up not a hand out: Renewing the fight against poverty”, identifies a continuing decline in income for many poor households and emphasises the central role of employment opportunities in tackling poverty. It highlights these points:
> Between 1984 and 1999, the top 20% of Australian income earners saw a 1% increase in their disposable income, while the poorest 20% saw a 10% drop;
> Twenty-one per cent of Australians — about 3.6 million people — live on less than $A400 per week, which is $31 less than the full-time minimum wage;
> One million Australians are considered to be poor although they live in households where at least one adult works;
> 700,000 children are growing up with neither parent working full-time; and
> The poorest 20% of the population use government services less than people in the next two population bands.

The Democrats believe that the level of poverty in Australia is unacceptable. The wealth gap between the rich and poor in Australia has grown over the past decade. Despite more than a decade of continual economic growth, this prosperity has left many in middle Australia standing still and many of the poorest worse off.

In recent times, the Government has even pushed through legislation which is directly contributing to higher poverty by reducing the incomes of many sole parents and people with disabilities.

http://www.democrats.org.au/campaigns/poverty_in_australia/

Greedy private landlords not maintaining their house and not caring how bad the conditions are in their accommodation. Several councils have had to get court orders allowing them to take over maintenance.

Capitalism at it's worse!!

Bernice: The actual figures came up at 2.5 million!!

very poor service here.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/dec/31/mothers-nhs-overnight-care-doctors

Blimey!!

Artful Dodger: It won't be debated on this board. You responding to what you see as baits makes you just as guilty. This board is about to go on approval status. So please, start off 2011 behaving.

15/12/2010

The UK's skills shortage is affecting larger business growth, the Institute of Directors (IoD) has said. Its survey reveals that 31 per cent of employers are finding it hard to fill vacancies due to a lack of candidates possessing the necessary skills for a role.

This is echoed by the latest Report on Jobs from the REC and KPMG, which stated that businesses are finding a skills shortage in some areas, including IT specialists.

The IoD claimed that the hardest skills to find are in technical skills, management and leadership. In addition, the association found that 47 per cent of those surveyed said that some of their current employees also lack the skills required to perform their job.

"It is disturbing that at a time of economic weakness, the growth of the private sector is being held back by skills shortages," commented Miles Templeman, director-general of the IoD.

This has led to 58 per cent of employers claiming that the skills shortage is restricting the growth of their business through higher costs, stifled innovation and increased workloads for other staff.

http://www.womenintechnology.co.uk/news/iod-uk-skills-shortage-affecting-business-growth-news-800292413

If this continues to turn personal, all participants WILL be banned. Thank you.

.. In relation to why Australia might have to source out maintenance.

FEARS are mounting that major resource projects are at risk because of the intensifying skills shortage.

The number of business leaders calling for the government to urgently act to limit the economic damage from the skills shortage is growing.

Global ratings agency Moody's warned that Australia's energy industry, which is driving growth with more than $150 billion worth of new projects planned, has seen competition for labour and equipment "intensify dramatically".

Companies including Rio Tinto, Leighton Holdings and Transfield Services have called for more flexibility to bring in skilled foreign workers under the 457 visa program to fill labour gaps and relieve the building pressures that threaten to derail project timetables and fuel inflation in the broader economy.

* Sarah-Jane Tasker and Katherine Jimenez
* From: The Australian
* December 08, 2010 12:00AM
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/skills-crisis-risks-150bn-worth-of-projects/story-e6frg8zx-1225967252748

as I said.. big deal.. shortfalls just don't cure themselves overnight. UK businesses and the government analysis projected skill pools years in advance.

Bernice: Yes... Rationing was still in place, we were still rebuilding. As was Germany and many European countries. We were not poor, just we had come through years of being bombed. There was work, just some were pulled by the thought of having Xmas in the sun

As to the article being 2007... wow! big deal.

(V): Please read what you post before you post it....again your google has let you down....that article is dated August 2007...stop living in the past.

And 1 million brits did emigrate to Aus because they were sick and tired of being in a country that was so poor, there was no work, and the country was still in a mess from the 2nd world war....they came to a land of milk and honey, as did a lot of germans. They had the choice of australia or canada....I dont know how many went to Canada

Australia admits.. we just ain't got the homegrown skilled labour force, so we want more Brits..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-relaxes-its-immigration-rules-to-persuade-skilled-young-britons-to-emigrate-461911.html

A bit like in the 1950's-60's when Brits were being offered to able to migrate to Aussie land for just £10.. 1 million Brits emigrated under that scheme.

Funny.. I thought that we were at war with France and Spain stretched our logistics had more effect than "cheating".

I mean.. it's not like you are playing Monopoly and cheat by knicking a few K.

Artful Dodger: ROFL......

Artful Dodger: lol...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK6jQZcqZB8&feature=related

..... Bill is lying again!!

Bwild: Depends on what level you are studying to. Basically .. you won.

... But we did get the madness of King George. Which, last I read was somewhat caused by the loss of the America's..... Him going nutz led to the birth of the modern treatment of mental health issues.

I cant help but wonder what british history books say about the american revolutionary war

Artful Dodger: Is the zzzzzzzzzzzzz because they didn't teach much real history when you went to school rather than "duck and cover"??