grenv: isnt that a bit too much advice for an ongoing game?

Thad: Seems like you should redouble

alanback: Yeah, I'm not too worried about it, I just wanted to ask here before I reported it on the bug tracker page.

Thad:  The double probably threw the autopass out of whack.  I wouldn't worry about it, just sit back and collect your winnings.  Maybe he'll get what he deserves for that double, and you'll gammon him ;-)

I have a prime block in my home row and my opponent just doubled while on the bar. I accepted. Now it's his turn. Shouldn't autopass fire and make it my turn? Here's the game, although things might not be evident once he takes his turn:

Backgammon (Thad vs. sascham)

Fencer: ah, thank you :)

dresali: The images are not available in the bigger size yet.

dresali: I am also having problems with that game not loading correctly....

I just placed a black stone on top of a white stone in Plakato
and the corresponding image isnt displayed correctly.
maybe its a temporary prob, but i just thought i'd mention it.


Plakoto (Stingette vs. dresali) after black's 3rd move
http://i.brainking.com/back/bpudo40h-2.gif -> 404 - Not Found

Edit: Thats odd, my opponent seems to see it, but i dont, while i see everything else (its the same after refreshing the page multiple times)

Edit 2: Ok nevermind, it all works now, probably some odd local problem or something, sorry for the bother ;-)

Edit 3: it only works when i am not logged in, cause then a different image is used, the above mentioned file is not found.

fakar10: Yes, it does.

From the rules at bkgm.com: "You are not allowed to block all six points in your starting table."

Does this apply in the middle of a move?
If I for instance occupy all the points in the starting quadrant except the 19-point and have a bunch of extra checkers on the 24 point, then roll 55. Am I allowed to move 24-14, 24-14, even though the moved checkers will temporarily complete the prime on their way?

Czuch: Nope.

Fencer: Will there be a stand alone game with the same rules IE opening doubles possible, as Portes?

AbigailII: It is almost correct. What I mean is that there will be no standalone game called Portes.

How does Tavli work?

On brainking.info, Fencer says that he plans to three games that make up Tavli. Portes is one of them, and he says Brainking has it already, because it's just backgammon without the doubling cube. That's not quite correct. The rules of Portes state that the winner of the opening roll rerolls. A subtle difference, meaning that the player going first may start with doubles, which is impossible in regular backgammon. (There's also a slight difference in counting points, but that's only relevant for point matches).

Of course, it means that implementing Portes will not be difficult, as it's almost the same. Just not exactly.

Is any Bishop (or higher) interested in playing on the Grasshopper site team tournament?

The site team tournament starts in about 4 days, and there still needs to be at least 1 more team to join. (a team of 4 players)

My fellowship, The Gammon Cube is looking for 2 more players.

If you are interested, PLEASE come and join our Grasshopper team:

◙ The Gammon Cube ◙

Carl: Yeah, I checked my settings - it was disabled (I guess that when a new game is added, everyone "autopass" settings for that game is set to disabled, even if the player prefers to play with autopass). I had turned on the "Select this option if you want to use auto pass" when creating the invitations, but I guess that was silently ignored.

AbigailII: I have it enabled.

Has autopass been implemented for Plakato? I'm playing 15 or so games of Plakato, and none of them seem to have autopass enabled; but I do not know whether that is because Plakato is in the class of games that do not have autopass, or whether that's because none of my opponents have autopass enabled.

Ok I lied. I have another question.

When bearing off, if I become pinned, does that stop me from bearing off my other checkers? Or can I still bear off my other checkers and only the pinned checker must of course wait to be freed?

My one question is.

When I have an opponent pinned am I allowed to use that pip in my moves? The rules say the opponent may not use the pip, but if my man is on top, may I use it?

Answered my own question in game. The pip can be used as normal. I have 2 of my checkers on top of my opponent.

Does anyone know good strategy for Plakoto?

coan.net: Thanks... So, starting on the #1 Pip and pinning are the only differences, correct?

And I assume this point:
"Pinning the mother checker: The last checker on your starting point is called the mother. If this checker gets pinned by the opponent before it has left the start, the game is over and you lose two points. The only exception is if the opponent still has checkers on his starting point, since in this case his own mother is still threatened. A game in which both mothers are pinned is a tie."
only applies in multi-point matches. (The losing 2 points part).

And if it is a multi-point match, there is no doubling cube? I wonder why?

rod03801: You can find how to play here:

http://bkgm.com/variants/Plakoto.html

I'm guessing the rules are the same here.

It's frustrating when a new game arrives and the rules aren't there!!!

If someone knows the rules, could you post them here?

Plakoto is here at last.Have fun.

How does the pinning thing actually work?

coan.net: The double/tripple choice games seem like they would be good workable games.... I agree that it would employ different strategy, but not necessarily more?

Just thinking out loud here... It seems that in regular backgammon you have to plan for the possibility that your opponent can make any roll, and then work from the statistics of each one.... in your game, you have only two or three possible rolls, and they are all equally likely, since they have already been rolled.

So in that sense, there would be less strategy, since there would be fewer options to worry about.

But I am sure there would be other strategies that would come into play that dont in regular backgammon. I would give a game like this a try!

I have a few Backgammon variant ideas that I would LOVE to hear feedback from anyone about how it could be good/bad and such..... since I would also like to suggest them to Fencer as possible game ideas.

#1: Double & Triple Choice Backgammon - Details of the game can BE FOUND HERE - but basically each player has 2 (or 3) rolls already rolled in which you can choose which one of the rolls to use each turn. Your opponent can also see all of your possible moves in advance of their own move. This brings a lot more strategy into the game since you can see all possible moves that your opponent might make in their next turn before you make yours.... but how good can you plan ahead?

#2: Dark Backgammon. Each player starts with 10 pieces. The pieces are setup like they are in Backgammon Race (all 10 on space 1 & 24 on the board).

You can NOT see your opponents pieces

You can NOT see your opponents pip count

You can NOT see your opponents dice roll
You can only see where your pieces are.

If you move your piece to a space with 0 opponent pieces on it, your piece stays there (just like normal backgammon)

If you move your piece to a space with 1 opponent piece on it, you send it to the bar and your piece stays there (just like normal backgammon)

If you move your piece to a space with 2+ opponent pieces on it, your own piece is sent back to the bar.

Since it is "dark", you will not know the results of your move until you "submit" the move. So lets say you have double 5's, and you move 4 pieces from space 1 to space 6 - and hit submit. If your opponent already had 2 (or more) pieces on space 6, ALL 4 of your pieces are sent to the bar.

It should be a fun cat-n-mouse game

#3: New Russian Backgammon - Just made up the name, but it is a mix of Tabula and Russian Backgammon

So same as Tabula EXCEPT use only 2 dice & normal double rules apply. (roll double 4's, move 4-4-4-4)

So same as Russian Backgammon EXCEPT no choice of reroll of first roll, and no strange double/invert/roll again type of thing. Just regular good-old normal double rules.


= = = = = = = = =

AGAIN - Please feel free to comment good or bad about either of those 3 ideas. The first 2 are games that I have written. The double/triple choice seems to work well in real life. The Dark is not very easy to test in real life. The New Russian rules are basically the same as on the sites lists - other then the small tweak in the rules by myself which I think make the game more playable without having new strange rules to get in the way.

Hrqls: it might be not wise to hit later one if i get sent back all the time and my opponent has moved a bit further

or it might be wiser to hit just then

ah well ... since i started playing hypergammon i hit most of the time :)

Hrqls: lol. In this case that isn't an issue since every move you make is essentially forced (except for whether to hit, but assume yes in most cases and you should be fine).

alanback: ok thanks :)
now that you know gnu's rollout .. how would you personally move ?

(i sometimes wonder why some experts advice a certain course .. and when i try to play that way i will fail because i dont make the correct followup moves .. so its not always wise for me to follow gnu's advice :))

Hrqls:  Gnu doesn't give explanations!  All it can tell you is (according to its algorithms) which move produces the most wins ... assuming both players play like gnu.  PlayBunny's explanation is as good as you are going to find.

playBunny & alanback & czuch: thanks! after reading your comments you had me convinced that i should have jumped over instead of hit .. i wasnt sure what to do when i made the move but i hit the checked just because i like to hit and to go for gammon although it might make no sense .. and even if i hit the checker and was hit back again later .. it might just prolong the game a little more ... i thought

so that was my reasoning for hitting .. quite impressive eh .. very well thought and analyzed ;)

but gnu proved me right!!!!!!!!
(ok gnu would have made the same more ;) ... i wouldnt expect that after your comments .. its something i will keep in mind ..)

can we also find in the roll out of gnu why hitting was better ?
(i am not used to reading gnu roll outs)

playBunny:  If I read that right, the hit is better?  Cool, thanks.

alanback: But of course.

Rollout 1296 trials, 2-ply for 12 plies, 0-ply thereafter
# .. Move ......... Equity . (Diff) .... Win ... WinG .. WinBg ---- Lose .. LoseG . LoseBg
1 .. bar/19*/15 ... +0.976 ............ 98.8% .. 66.1% ... 4.2% --- 1.2% ... 0.0% ... 0.0%
2 .. bar/15 ....... +0.954 (-0.022) ... 97.7% .. 43.9% ... 1.1% --- 2.3% ... 0.0% ... 0.0%
Std Err ............ 0.001 ............. 0.1% ... 0.6% ... 0.4% --- 0.1% ... 0.0% ... 0.0%

And if the move is bar/15 followed by 42: 12/10*/6 the chances drop:

Rollout 1296 trials, 2-ply for 12 plies, 0-ply thereafter
# .. Move ......... Equity . (Diff) .... Win ... WinG .. WinBg ---- Lose .. LoseG . LoseBg
1 .. 12/10*/6 ..... -0.930 (-0.046) .... 3.5% .. 0.0% ... 0.0% --- 96.5% .. 27.1% ... 0.2%

playBunny:  It's differences of opinion that make horse races!

Why don't you ask gnu?

alanback: there's nothing to be gained by hitting.

Sure there is. Fun!

Your one goal is to get past his back men, and hitting makes that harder, not easier.

Is that true, though? It's not just getting past his back men, it's getting all his men off before the opponent does. Failing to hit gives 19 pips to the opponent. How many rolls would that save the opponent in equalising and getting ahead? That must be weighed against the extra chances of 4 men and a one-point table detaining the blot sufficient to win.

Actually, one possible continuation after not hitting is that the opponent rolls 2-4 and moves 12/10*/6 to make the 6-point. But even if it's a non-hitting 6, that's the 6-point made. Thus, after not hitting, 17 rolls will give an immediate two-point home table. That's four times the chances of dancing, and the splendid 6-6 off the bar is lost.

there's nothing to be gained by hitting.

Sure there is. Wins!

Hrqls:  Took me a minute to figure out that the 4-2 wasn't your roll.

I agree with Czuch, there's nothing to be gained by hitting.  You're already well ahead in the race and you have no board.  Your one goal is to get past his back men, and hitting makes that harder, not easier.  Unless like you he rolls double aces and dances against a one point board ...

Hrqls: Hit everything and fry up some gammon! except that gammons don't count, so just hit and have fun. It's Hypergammon with 1 man versus 4. He doesn't stand a chance.

Hrqls: That is a tough call... but to me, i think you should have skipped over it. Putting him on the bar takes away his double 1 roll, and his 2 1 roll from hitting you, but any other 2 roll hits you anyway, and then you still have that one checker left around to get you later.... I think though it doesnt really matter, since it is only a matter of some time before you win this one no matter what!

i am bearing off already, 1 piece of me is on the bar, my opponent isnt bearing off yet but has some pieces back to send me to the bar

i can send one of the pieces of my opponent to the bar .. but i can also leap over it

what should i have done ?
(i sent his piece to the bar)

the position can be found here : Backgammon (Hrqls - incognito)

playBunny:  I agreee that GamesGrid is the gold standard for real time play, and Dailygammon is the unchallenged leader for turn-based.

Czuch: Yep, for turn-based play it would be DailyGammon. For live play it's probably GamesGrid. I've never played there but I understand that several World Class players have an account there, Paul Magriel, for instance.

what is the accepted real "king" of backgammon websites?

playBunny: "Top in ToyTown", I like that expression !

Andersp: Hope you can accept my apology for not noticing what you've been up to...sorry .

Lol. Apology accepted if given. It's hard to tell with you when you're such the joker.

I wasnt thinking about you at all when i asked Alan about sophisticated, but all of the sudden you popped up.

You're the one who applied the "sophisticated" label to me. My contribution was about "High vs Low", specifically "players who prey exclusvely on the low rated players" and that could have been made by anyone. The rest was the usual you-and-me banter.