Where the U.S. government usually consumes 21% of gross domestic product, this Obama budget spends 28% in 2009 and runs a deficit of $1.75 trillion, or 12.7% of GDP. That is four times the largest deficit of George W. Bush and twice as large a share of the economy as any deficit run since World War II.

Add that 28% of GDP spent by the U.S. government to the 12% spent by states, counties and cities, and government will consume 40% of the economy in 2009.

The Usurper: That is not true. Iran has no national policy of destroying Israel



Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Wednesday for world Muslims to join the Palestinian "resistance" against Israel

that civilians from all around the globe are way different then their government was.. I chat with peeps from countries I had been taught were places to watch out for... those I speak with confirm that they have the same wants and desires for their families and loved ones.. isn't that interesting.. so assuming certain things about another country isn't fair to scar the people living under the government..

(V): The latest example:

"US to boycott UN racism conference"
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/02/200922855014421433.html

Alas, Obama is no Martin Luther King, Jr. More like a white elitist in black skin. No significant U.S. policies will change during his administration. The ploy worked....America's anger at its criminal government funneled into a false hope. This is how it is designed to work. No matter which rascals you throw out, you're stuck with the same rascals.

(V): "I can't understand why a country would support state terrorism"

They support it because it is profitable. Our leaders are the extremist radicals we accuse Ahmadinejad & all Arabs of being. Death in the Middle East = Money. It is also a lever of world power, the ultimate motive.

The Usurper: Aye, the USA if it had supported the resolutions could have given rise to this problem being resolved years ago.

I can't understand why a country would support state terrorism, leaving blood on their hands as a result of their actions.

But there again.... Many USA citizens supported the IRA giving them guns and money while they were killing British soldiers and civilians, as well as Northern Ireland residents.

http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/palestinian-girl-israeli-troops.html

According to the laws of the Qu'ran firing at children is not acceptable. So those who say they do are breaking Islamic law, those who do suicide attacks, are breaking Islamic law and the words of the Qu'ran state they are going to hell.

--Two nations stand out above all others as notorious serial abusers of UN resolutions - the US and Israel. Over the last half century, the US has used its Security Council veto many dozens of times to prevent any resolutions from passing condemning Israel for its abusive or hostile actions or that were inimical to Israeli interests. It's also voted against dozens of others overwhelmingly supported by the rest of the world in the UN General Assembly. By its actions and with 6% of the world's population, the US has thus arrogantly ignored the will of nearly all the other 94% to support its client state even when Israel had committed war crimes or crimes against humanity the rest of the world demanded it be held to account for. In the words of one UK observer using a baseball analogy: "Only the USA could have a World Series and not invite the rest of the world."--

Full article here:
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3460

Artful Dodger: Rubbish. They have what they call these days "Rules of Engagement" written down in their Holy book, just as the Jewish people have "an eye for an eye".

And as for it always being the Arabs..... that is as far from reality as we are from the edge of the universe. In respect Israel broke peace terms and conditions regarding the Palestinians for years.... hence the problems. I think they've broken more UN resolutions then Saddam, they taken land not theirs (like Saddam and Kuwait), abuse the Palestinian people daily (just like Saddam) denying them basic human rights and the Palestinian people are just supposed to go "ooOOOOoo we deserve it as we are Arabs and the bad guys"...

If Israel had kept to UN resolutions on borders and the rest then the hate level in that area would be far, far less.

Now what is the USA going to do about a country that has broken resolution after resolution, killed and made a peoples existence a hell of sorts and has WMD's?

Artful Dodger: Check your PM.

Artful Dodger: LOL We may both fail miserably. Unfortunately I can't afford to bribe you..... :o)

The Usurper:   It will be my quest in life to lead you to the right path; and your quest to lead me astray  ;) 

Artful Dodger: "I do get your point but I'm still right."

That's a good line to end tonight's debate with. lol

Sleep well. Who knows where the P-Board will lead us tomorrow? (eery background music)

The Usurper:I'll look at it.  But I'll also offer some other quotes that are similar to Iran's leader and so actually support my position and put yours in question.

The Usurper:It is logical to keep it in mind but it doesn't necessarily "raise the odds" as his information can easily be checked out.  If what you say is true, then no news source is trustworthy as all of us, no matter what we claim to the contrary, have a bias.  I am biased toward the conservative view.  But if I report on something the Democrats said or did, the fact that I favor conservatism doesn't preclude my truth telling with regard to my reporting.  You commit a logical fallacy when you paint the report because of the source.  The source MAY be relevant to the criticism, but it doesn't simply follow that since the reporter is close to the story then the story must be taken with a grain of salt. 



I do get your point but I'm still right. 

Artful Dodger: I've known for some time about the mistranslation. During the current debate, I googled & found the Wikipedia article, so that's what I posted.

I just googled this:

Ahmadinejad mistranslation
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ahmadinejad+mistranslation&btnG=Search

I don't have the energy to prove it line-by-line. lol But it is something you might research.

Artful Dodger: It certainly doesn't. But it does raise the odds that he is playing funny with the "facts." It is logical to take this into consideration.

The Usurper:"There is a lot of dubious translation"

Prove it - line by line

The Usurper:What you can do is show where the Palestinians have put forth real and consistent effort at peace.  Rather than try to refute everything I offer, show some positive proof.  And BTW, wikipedia isn't a reliable source.  Even I can contribute to articles there.  It's not a scholarly deposit of information.  It's a collection of information from anyone who cares to add to the lot.  Sure there are safeguards, but it's the internet and I went to the link and was able to edit some of the information.  So how reliable is that source?

Artful Dodger: There is a lot of dubious translation in your posted quote, as is well-documented. Suffice to say, Ahmadinejad
does not like the Zionist regime & properly recognizes it as an enemy. He does not advocate the genocide of the Jewish people. And the fact remains, that Iran has no official policy of military aggression towards Israel or anyone else. The only war they've fought in recent memory is a defensive war against the American-backed invasion of Iran by Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

The Usurper:Not so.  It's a logical fallacy to "take with a grain of salt" historical facts simply because they are reported by someone who shares ancestry with the land he is reporting on.  You can't just wipe them out because the person reporting is Jewish.  His Jewishness doesn't preclude truth telling. 

Artful Dodger: This article (in your link) is written by Barry Rubens, a professor in Herzliya, Israel. He is American in nationality & Jewish in ancestry. Some might consider those affiliations cause for bias, and his sweeping statements therefore to be taken with a grain of salt.

The Usurper:

“There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the  face of the Islamic world....Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury (while) any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world....As the Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini] said, Israel must be wiped off the map.”

— Speech by <span>Iranian
President Mahmoud <span>Ahmadinejad

AP , October 26, 2005

Ahmadinejad would like to see regime change in Israel. So would I, for that matter.

Artful Dodger: That is not true. Iran has no national policy of destroying Israel. In fact, Ahmadinejad's comments were mistranslated. Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

"And asked if he [Ahmadinejad] objected to the government of Israel or Jewish people, he said that "creating an objection against the Zionists doesn't mean that there are objections against the Jewish". He added that Jews lived in Iran and were represented in the country's parliament.[27]"

Iran is one of the most non-agressive nations in modern history. It hasn't attacked anyone. Not so the belligerent U.S.

The Usurper:How many copy paste credits do I have? (found some good quotes  )

The Usurper:Well, you didn't know I collectivized until now so that can't be your point about my caricaturing. 

What is the national policy of Iran towards Israel? 

Total destruction.

one down

Artful Dodger: I don't think you can collectivize the attitude, that is too simplistic & results in caricature. That is my point, really.

The Usurper:I don't think that's a fair comparison.  We're talking about the whole of the Arab world and the collective attitude of the group.  Which Arab nation openly and regularly supports Israel's right to exist?  And which ones openly and regularly support Israel's ultimate defeat?  Those that are silent can be placed in the latter category.

Artful Dodger: Krushev (sp) said the same about America, but I doubt most Russians felt that way.

The Usurper:Except that the leaders themselves have said as much.

Artful Dodger: "Nothing will appease the Arabs except for the complete extermination of Israel."

I think this statement is a mischaracterization of most Islamic people. So I see that as a misunderstanding on your part. I agree there is plenty we both don't know.

The Usurper:"I believe your understanding of the Middle East mindset is more a caricature of reality,"

You can't possibly know anything about my understanding about he  Middle East from the  little I've said let alone characterize it as a caricature.  lol  Neither you nor I fully understand the Middle East to make fully intelligent statements regarding the policies, politics or attitudes they hold.  At best we both hold misguided to uninformed to semi-informed understandings.  ;)  

No people or religion can be judged by its extremist proponents or leaders, except that we use the same standard for all, and only to the extent that we are all responsible, at least partially, for allowing extremism to take root, whether in America, Israel, Gaza or anywhere else.

There are good Jews, good Christians, good Muslims, etc. Take the infamous "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion," for instance. I think this document is "legitimate," in the sense that it partly describes the means & methods for the rise of world dictatorship. But I do not believe it is a Jewish document, but rather floats under a "false-flag," if you will, thus utilizing the age-old strategy of "divide and conquer." Even if it WERE a Jewish document, it would not be representative of the Jewish people as a whole, but only certain elite radicals. Some elite radicals are certainly Jewish, but some are also Anglo-Saxon & many other nationalities.

Artful Dodger: I believe your understanding of the Middle East mindset is more a caricature of reality, than the truth. Certainly there are some hard right Muslims, just as there are hard right Christians. I don't consider either attitude healthy or conducive to peace. But Islam is smeared in America. Its people are sorely misrepresented. I'd hate to be an American Islamist about now.

The Usurper:apartheid is a bit strong.  If you were surrounded by your enemies, who attacked you on with the intentions of wiping you out, (6-Day; Yom Kippur) and from the moment of Israel's "rebirth," they have been attacked.  And if those same enemies vowed to drive you into the sea, and if those same enemies had as their holy book words written in it to kill you where they find you, then you might see things as they do.

It's easy for you with your Western eyes to look at Israel as the agressor.  But you don't understand the middle east mindset and particularly don't understand the enemies of Israel.  Nothing will appease the Arabs except for the complete extermination of Israel.  Israel is NOT seeking their extermination and history has shown that they have put forth multiple efforts at peace.  It is always the Arabs that break the peace. 

"Global apartheid, stated briefly, is an international system of minority rule whose attributes include: differential access to basic human rights; wealth and power structured by race and place; structural racism, embedded in global economic processes, political institutions and cultural assumptions; and the international practice of double standards that assume inferior rights to be appropriate for certain "others," defined by location, origin, race or gender."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010709/booker

Statistics indicate that global apartheid is more severe than South African apartheid in its heyday.

Artful Dodger: I agree with you that rocket attacks on civilian targets is as unwise as it is immoral. Both sides appear to be guilty of this...although Israel has a bigger punch and so does more damage. My opinion, in general, is that Israel is practicing apartheid in the Middle East. This is not to excuse other terrorist organizations (Israel's practices "state terrorism") from heinous acts.

The Usurper: Facts and interpretations of the facts are two different things.  Just so we're clear on those parameters.  One thing that would have to be made clear to me, how anyone is justified in firing rockets into civilian targets simply for terrorist purposes.  Nothing is gained for Hamas by the rocket attacks.  They are meant to provoke Israel, knowing Israel will respond with a heavy hand.  Then they can whine to the world about Israel's aggressive tactics.  If I were Israel, I'd never have given back any territory after the 6 day war and Yom Kippur.  The Arabs have promised to drive Israel into the sea and that is what they will continue to try to do.  No matter how many consessions Israel makes, and they have made many, the Arabs will never rest until Israel no longer exists.  This is a fact to which they themselves attest. 

Artful Dodger: That is true. Some are more related to facts than others. That's always our goal, isn't it? To align our viewpoints with facts? A high calling, not always easy.....

Tuesday: Thanks. :o)

The Usurper:there's always an alternative viewpoint.

Artful Dodger: I'll look into it later tonight, and see if I can find an alternate viewpoint with facts to substantiate it. Or else see things in a new light. January 18...that's my birthday. I'm officially old now.

The Usurper:  Looking at the current situation since January 18, where at least two rockets a day have been launched into Israel from Gaza, and Israel has honored the cease fire, what other way is there to see it?  The Arabs firing the rockets are the good guys?  Sure.

Artful Dodger: That's one way of looking at it. lol

The cease fire in Israel goes like this.

Israel will cease.

The arabs will continue to fire.

Yeah, since the ceasefire in January, there have been 100 rocket attacks by Hamas onto civilian targets.  That's 2 per day.  And what is the world doing about this?  They are raising money to give to Hamas for rebuilding.  Really.  And all that money will go to rebuilding Gaza.  Not on your life.  Expect to see more of the same.  Gaza sends rockets, the US (along with Britain) sends Gaza money, and Israel will once again be alone against the world. 

Czuch: "Why bother with messy details anyway????"

You mischaracterize me. I always pay attention to the messy details. I highly recommend doing so, to anyone who wants a clearer picture of the world.