(V):
What I am trying to get to in my posts is that if we say that waterboarding is not torture, then it is an acceptable interrogation technique and should be used whenever the state decides it is suitable. I want to see those who defend or oppose waterboarding make some good arguments answering my questions. I see some of us claiming a high moral ground, but if waterboarding saves lives, then should it be acceptable? Those who support waterboarding have said that it is OK to go even further, but is there a limit? When does waterboarding (or other similar techniques) become or stop being acceptable?

Übergeek 바둑이: Doing it causes suffering, suffering creates hate.

And hate creates pain. So how is it a cure is what I wonder!!

Czuch: Well if your self justified, justify yourself. Others have been capable and have one won the fight without breaking the principles that they are fighting for.

So.. tell me. Why can't America?

You've signed all the conventions, taking part and pursued war criminals and tried them without all this 'torture' business, and then much bigger criminals then you have now for much of the same things that you now justify..

... So when did someone decide the American spirit has become so weak that it needs to behave as it once said was so wrong??

Case 1:
The police have caught a thief suspected of a string of robberies at convenience stores. Since he has refused to confess to his crimes during interrogation, the police decide to waterboard him to elicit a confession. He confesses to his crimes and goes to jail.

Case 2:
A suspected serial killer has refused to confess to his crimes during normal police interrogation. The police decide to use waterboarding to make the serial killer confess and disclose the location of dead victims that have not been found by the police. He confesses and is sentenced to death.

Case 3:
A child serial rapist has abducted a child. If the police do not find the child it could die. The police caught the suspect and decide to waterboard him. The suspect discloses the location of the child and is sent to jail.

Case 4:
A communist agitator has been organizing workers to join unions. He is also suspected of organizing demostrations against the government. The military capture this man and waterboard him to make him disclose the location of his associates. The man confesses and he and all his associates are sent to prison.

Case 5:
A man is supected of being a member of the communist party and organizing guerrilla operations against the government. He is captured and waterboarded to make him disclose the location of the guerrilla command and all of his revolutionary comrades. He confesses and is sent to prison. His comrades were never found.

Case 6:
An radical anarchist is suspected of carrying out bombings against banks. This has disrupted the businesses of banks and cost millions in property damage. He confesses to his crimes during waterboarding and is sent to prison.

Case 7:
A man is suspected of being a member of Al Qaida and of having information in a bombing that could leave hundreds of people dead. He is subjected to waterboarding, but refuses to confess claiming that he is innocent. During the course of investigation it is found that he is indeed innocent and he is set free.

I divided my cases as follows:

Case 1: a common criminal
Case 2: a dangerous criminal with no victims in imminent danger
Case 3: a dangerous criminal with a victim in imminent danger
Case 4: a political prisoner not implicated in acts of terrorism
Case 5: a political prisoner suspected of acts against the government
Case 6: a political prisoner commiting acts of terrorism
Case 7: a suspected terrorist who is later found innocent

So my questions are:

If waterboarding is not torture, why are the police and other law enforcement agencies not allowed to use it when interrogating prisoners (cases 1, 2 and 3)?

Why is waterboarding not used to put extremely dangerous criminals away (case 2)?

Is waterboarding acceptable to save a human life (see case 3)?

Is waterboarding acceptable for undesirable political views or political prisoners (case 4)?

Is waterboarding acceptable for any military action involving guerrilla warfare or insurgents (case 5)?

Are all forms of terrorism (including mere economic terrorism) a good reason to use waterboarding (case 6)?

What do we do is somebody is subjected to waterboarding and is later found innocent (case 7)?

I find that waterboarding is one of those areas that some people see as black and white, and other see as grey. I am curious to see some opinions.

(V): I dont need or want any moral high ground... you would be the one watching your family get slaughtered while chanting to yourself, "I am better than them" "I am better then them" "I am better than them"....

Did we all survive the finance crisis? Maybe today economics understand that people have nothing to do with the finance sector. Stop the stress, nothing happened. Nothing? Oh, some homeless more, some other messed up countries. Thank you!

Intel need to certain that a captured suspect has important infos. If it comes to these waterboarded 'victims', what lead to this act? Wouldn't that show if pressure was justified? If it's true that the intel paperwork around Guantanamo is in complete disorder it influences my opinion in favor of these 'non status' people in there of course.

Czuch: And you tell me that your model doesn't fit yet you use it.

It's the old teaspoon problem... what is it?

Czuch: No.. not trickle down... you put a price on the cost of one humans head, it then becomes a standard excuse.

... Now, read your history about tyrants and what they thought... a slippery slope that opens the path to the abyss.

.. And it's this kind of attitude that opens up the problem of moral high ground.

... you ain't got any.

(V): So much can be dependent on little things, like whether somone is having a bad day or not. And us being humans.. can you predict accurately how someone will react?




Thats exactly why i dont trust mere mortals to make subjective choices in the micro management of my life.... I will stick with a good model, and update every so often, thank you

Czuch: You know your intel guys are taught to not give up info. Such training includes waterboarding simulation to make it so they don't give up info. That's how your guys who used it knew how to use it.

(V): It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.




here you go again.... trickle down is no good except when it works for you, and slippery slopes are a good argument, but only when it is to defend your own beliefs

Übergeek 바둑이: Just like a person who is an adrenaline junkie knows that he will likely die in some sort of an accident some day, so too do our military know that if they get caught behind the lines spying, that their lives are pretty much over, its just part of the job really I say a big yes to the thumb screws if some bad guy has some intel we need! What nobody mentions is that all these people have to do is give up their intel and guess what... NO TORTURE, back to the cushy cell with their Koran and silly diet!!!!

Czuch: Models don't work Czuch... they are based on a fixed unmoving world. As you know.. we are in orbit. And being subjective.. the laws of gravity change perspective in as much that time is distorted.

You know your GPS is reliant on constant daily updates to the clocks on the satellites due to the difference in time from living in 1G and zero G.

And as one political commentator said. So much can be dependent on little things, like whether somone is having a bad day or not. And us being humans.. can you predict accurately how someone will react?

Artful Dodger: Nope, I answered. And if you had read up on why waterboarding was used (as I said .. due to a lack of trust in intelligence) you'd have my reply easily from my answers.

And Art.. There are times in your life when you cannot break trust. The Official Secrets Act (OSA) is one of them.. being a lawyer is another case, etc. I made a sincere promise and I intend to keep it!!!

But in respect, that is beside the point.

You want more clue's (I'm gonna make you stretch your grey stuff) ... Pan roams and that's all you get.


And Übergeek 바둑이 got the main point and the point you all seem to miss. It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.

Case 1:
A terrorist has been captured by American intelligence officers. There is strong reason to believe that this member of Al Qaida has information about a bombing that could leave hundreds of people dead. Since benign interrogation techniques failed, waterboarding is used to obtain information and protect the safety of the American public. Protecting the American public takes precedence over the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention Against Torture.

Case 2:
Iranian intelligence have captured an American intelligence officer doing reconnaisance at a suspected nuclear facility. Iranians belive that a military strike is imminent and that hundreds of Iranians would be killed. Since benign interrogation techniques failed, the Iranians use waterboarding to obtain information from the American agent. Protecting the Iranian public from the largest army in the world and the largest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction takes precedence over the Geneva Convention and the UN CAT.

In case 1 Americans are threatened by terrorists bent on acts of destruction. In case 2 Iranians feel threatened by American military might. Americans believe it is their right to protect themselves from terrorists. Iranians belive that they have the right to pursue nuclear deterrent as a way to protect themselves (something that the US has had since WW II).

The question is, if waterboarding was used in both cases, who is right? Both sides feel threatened. Is waterboarding OK if our side does it, and wrong when our enemies use it?

Like somebody said earlier, the enemy plays hard ball. Is this not a slippery slope? If waterboarding fails, should we pull out the dusty old rack and the thumb screws?

(V): Then who gets to decide what is a correct interpretation of the law needed due to lack of trust in intelligence??



LOL... that is exactly the same type of question I have for your socialism.... in regards to types of regulation etc

There are many situations where things get a bit subjective... I have asked you many times, without an answer i remember, who gets to decide?

thats the problem i have with a lot of it... it often comes down to one persons subjective views... and you dont like it when that view is someone like Cheney...and i dont like it when its you telling us how things should be..... thats why I prefer models, and then let it alone... subjectivity is only good when everyone agrees!

(V): Other ways to get info without the need for torture. A certain police force use it quite often


Really? What are they then?

Because it seems like to me that you are accusing us of torturing people just for the fun of it????


I do remember when we had some MPs taking naked pictures with dogs etc... but I dont consider this torture, I can guarantee you that our CIA has way better things to do with their time than to torture people just for the fun of it

(V):  You're avoiding the question.   If other methods failed to yield any information, and you had very strong reason to believe that your family/friends/fellow soldiers very lives were at stake and that the terrorist had information that could save lives, would you let other die, or water board?

You have two choices and only two. 

A-Water board to get the intel

B-No waterboarding under any circumstances even if it means loved ones may die.

A or B?

Please answer.   What are you going to do?

Artful Dodger: *sigh* Not everyone uses the same methods Art. Not everyone is trusted.. as in this case due to lack of trust in intelligence!!

(V):  Or a convenient way to avoid the question.  BTW, I figured you'd fail this little test.  The correct answer to my question would have pointed out that water boarding is a last course of interrogation and used only when other methods (such as your "secret" method) have failed.  That said, your answer to my question has to assume that those "secret" methods of yours would failed.  Because Jules, in point of fact, if those secret methods did actually work, then there would be no need to water board anyone.  It's only when other measures fail that water boarding is used. 

Now to the crux of the matter:  If all else fails you, and your family, friends, comrades' lives are at stake, and IF you have nothing left but to try the drastic step of water boarding, do you put other lives at risk for some nonsense such as higher ground or do you do the right thing and water board?

Me?  I'm a Jack Bower fan.  Some dude knows some intel that could bring harm to my family etc, I'm going right to well placed electrodes and gonna turn up the juice. 

One thing...

If the rules of the Geneva Convention don't apply to all by certain US 'models' created to deal with a lack in trust of intelligence.... Then who gets to decide what is a correct interpretation of the law needed due to lack of trust in intelligence??

Any answers?

Artful Dodger: That would in part require me to betray a trust.

Such I would consider as equal to breaking the OSA!

SL-Mark:  pretty please 

Artful Dodger: Say Pretty Please

(V):  And those other ways are?

Czuch: Pardon?? It was a simple question...

Look and see.

Artful Dodger: No. I wouldn't need to. Other ways to get info without the need for torture. A certain police force use it quite often

(V): What are you asking me this for anyway??? Please give me some reference for me to get perspective?

(V):  You'd use it if it was the only way to protect your family.  We all would.  We're not dealing with nuns here.   Terrorists.  they play hardball. 

Czuch: Czuch ... do you know waterboarding means??

I suggest you take a look at some demonstration videos on youtube. Where people agree to see what it feels like.

And using water torture (as I quoted) was considered a crime by the USA. What's changed??

Imsoaddicted: I've heard of such rubbish being said. It's a damn right disgrace!! I'm glad that most ignore that garbage. The man (or woman) in the street doesn't care. Plain and simple. And as far as I'm concerned breaks the law!! There is rules as such to prevent such stupidity under the religious freedom org that about 99% of all faiths and churches have signed.

I hope the day that the OTT crowd get their way ends soon. As far as I'm concerned the sooner the better. Extremes are always bad!

Tuesday: You have a better idea??? Maybe force people with a roof to have people without one move in with them?

I think at least in jail they have shelter and 3 meals and access to other resources for when they are to be released

Doesnt sound great, but neither does living out of a shopping cart under a bridge

(V): That is the point when suffering can occur.


Thats hog wash.... its like saying that if I kill you in your sleep, therefore no suffering, then it is okay???

Good luck with the false academic who depend on the industry and reproduce their lies. The green revolution is a lie, there are no crops from a labor that saves the world from starvation, it is a LIE, it doesn't work. Good luck with these fake academics, out of the universities with them, the money they earn is your money, given to them to reproduce lies to give you that comfy feeling they call life... Good luck in your reality, your reality is a lie.

(V): i remember being in a room on pogo.com on Christmas day and being told off by someone for wishing everyone in the room a Happy Christmas
it wasn't ethical to do that anymore i was told

80 % of the pharmaceutic products most usually take for tons of money can be replaced on a 5 mile walk aroud each ones home instead of buying it from companies who robbed the knowledge. Good luck in your comfy lives, nourished by the illusion of big money, waste and abuse. I for my part go collecting herbs, if I had to I'd get my food ready until next spring this week. Good luck hard working 'real lifers', I don't understand your ways.

Imsoaddicted: Tell me about it!! It's getting that in some cases that you can't be honest in telling your feelings in description these days. Even though the same crowd that says you can't uses their version as such which breaks the rules they say we have to live by!!

(V): the world has gone crazy

Imsoaddicted: Blame the 'PC' crowd! So many of what I call descriptive words are taken as being insults these days rather then being plain descriptions.

Some people just get upset to easily and we have to pay the price.
It would be far better for them to be told to grow up and stop being so insecure!!

(V): Domestic science is considered (in the saying, not the act) sexist

thats so stupid ive never heard about that till now ive got to ask the question why

Imsoaddicted: Domestic science is considered (in the saying, not the act) sexist I think.. But yes, from my experience home skills are still taught.

And like you, me and me better other half were taught how to cook, and we teach that to our siblings.

I even make our rice puddings (two types) as even the hob only type is far better then what in shops you can buy (unless you pay a fortune) for a fraction of the cost with ten times the quality.

It's the little extras that count

(V): yes but from what i understand basic common sense has flown outta the window
we didnt have this problem in the sixties
i was taught to bake from an early age and still do it now even thou im by myself

do they actually have domestic science lessons in schools today?

they have lessons for grown ups up here to teach them the basic skills on food. so makes me wonder why wasnt it taught to them earlier in there life

gogul: We have as well... It's called fair trade decent income...and fast becoming the established norm.

Imsoaddicted: Not in our family we are not. But it's a taught thing either way.

(V)</b but you have to agree we are now a nation of wasters sadly
an ever growing amount of ppl in the UK eat junk food on a daily buisness

we live in a throw away society and have done since the late 50s

we fast becomming a must have nation to esp the children

I see a world without big banking, without raping food suppliers, without abusing pharma. It's there in front of me. Good luck in your trashlife.

gogul: Such figures though since the recession are to be far from accurate. Less money to waste = less food to waste.

Shops now stock less perishables as they know they can't sell so much.

(V): But I know about Nestle, a other of these nasty swiss companies...