ColonelCrockett: I don't think a mouse in a pond has complete immunity. It can be eaten by the opposing mouse. The only way to find out if there would be too many draws would be to play some.

prendek: with the mouse in a pond square you stand no chance of losing (you'd just have to use your elephant to block the other elephant). I don't see the purpose of the variant. Usually, variants are designed to make regular games a little more interesting, I don't see this variant being that much different (perhaps maybe even more drawable).

I would like to see a variation of Jungle in which to win you either get your mouse / rat in the opponent's lair or eat the mouse. I'm currently playing Water Dancer with the honour system of this variation. Any support for this?
Regards,
prendek

I'm number One, I'm number One! (at least provisionally, LOL)

there is a game of jungle in the waiting room if anyone is interested.

is there anyone interested in a game of Jungle, I haven't played in awhile and I thought I should get a game going.

Hrqls: Your right, I know she'll gain them back and she seemed as positive about that as you are, I just thought it was kinda silly for an unrated player to get that many points from a rated one. (not a huge beef or anything, just an odd observation).

ColonelCrockett: she lost 39 points ... which is more than she would have lost against someone within her own bkr range ... but not that much either .. she will gain them back again ;)

you challenged her .. she accepted .. she could have declined .. she could have won because you were inexperienced but appearently you were playing very well :)

Hrqls: If I had known she would lose so many points by losing I would have just challenged her to a different game. It doesn't seem very fair for someone who worked hard for a good rating should suffer so badly from a single loss.

the amount of bkr lost/gained depends on several factors :

• the difference in bkr between the 2 players
  
• the amount of games played by the player
  
• the variation in winning/losses (deviation)
  
• and maybe some more factors?
  

i assume you are talking about your game of jungle with volant ? as you had not played a game of jungle before your bkr was at 1500 (i think?) which was more than 400 points lower than volants bkr at that time ... 400 seems to be a break point .. when the difference is more than 400 the gain/loss in bkr is even larger

when an unrated player beats a rated player why does the rated player lose so many points? (perhaps there is a help page explaining this?)

Thanks for your replies, you guys have just saved my little mouse from being eaten...Im glad I posted the question before I submitted the move! :)

Regarding the little dog, it looks like a poodle! Your right, it must eat some mighty dog food! lol :)

M4tt: yes a mouse can eat another mouse in the water.

The dog eats mighty dog dog food.

M4tt:
Yes, a mouse can eat another in the water. (I found that out the hard way LOL)

And I thought the same thing. How is the Dog stronger than a Wolf? hehe

Can a mouse be eaten by another mouse in the water?

Also how can the little cuddly dog be stronger than a wolf! :)

Please post it to the Bug Tracker, I'll do it ASAP.

I guess after playing tank war, where the middle squares are "safe" areas - I thought of the water the same way. And since it did not say it is possible, I guess I assumed it wasn't possible.

BBW: that's precisely the only restriction to when a mouse can kill: it can't kill an elephant when going out of the water, only a mouse... but it says nothing about the other possibilities so it can kill at any other occasion.

Really?? the situation's never come up in any of my games presumably because both players know that a mouse can kill a mouse in a lake.

I think it needs to be added to the rules that a mouse in the water can eat another mouse that is in the water.

How the rules are now, it seems like the only time a mouse can kill is as it jumps from the water onto "land".

i have heard that one who has finished 50 games loses less points as one who has finished only 5 games if they lose. so it's understandable that one with a high ranking and a lot of finished games loses less points as a person with lower ranking and a few finished games. maybe???

in my mesage it had you as losing points lightning. but in my game vs a person higher than you he lost nothing! in real chess if your a 1500 and you draw a 1900 your rating will increase!

I found the bug in the bug tracker.. It's bug #7.

Like rod said, it is a known bug. The ratings did go to the correct person, just the names are switched in the message at the end of the game. (games that end with a draw)

I believe it is a known bug with Draw messages...

In reality in our game the higher player lost points.
Here was the message after the game:

" LightningBolt: old BKR = 1679, new BKR = 1679 (0)
Nothingness: old BKR = 1738, new BKR = 1731 (-7)

Game type: Jungle "

However what is strange is it is me who was 1738 and it was Nothingness who was 1679.

The same thing happened for my previous Jungle game with Nothingness(an other draw...).

Someone could explain why?

LOL!!!!!

You could try borrowing one of the bombs from espionage.

" if i move my leopard down the middle he can still take it with his tiger, although it would let my tiger in im now down a leopard and now he has major material and my dog cant win vs anything in the red squares ".
Well anyway same if it was a problem I could same bring me too my leopard down the middle. To me this position is a dead draw.
In this position

It's interesting, maybe some other players have ideas. In "normal" Chinese chess there exists a similar problem that a player can only win with specific combinations of pieces, if they dont memorise the combinations it's impossible to efficiently conduct the middlegame. Due to this inherrent drawishness and the facility to be able to agree draws, it seems excessive to also allow one side to force a draw in an otherwise lost position. Regarding the Tromyr-Redsales game mentioned earlier, (I wrote "black" when I meant "white"), of course one cant criticise Redsales for playing within the rules but I would certainly like to see this rule given a serious review.
A further point concerning shogi, in shogi the players can not agree a draw. A threefold repetition (same player to move, same position on the board and same pieces in hand) voluntarily undertaken by both sides ie not with continuous checks by one side, is considered a 'no contest' and the game is replayed with reversed colours. The only valid draws are jishogi, though effectively, at the professional level, these too amount to no contest.

i check what you were saying since getting htem pieces to the squares you mentioned would take so long he could counter by moving cat out and replacing it with the leopard thus stoppingmy dog, if i move my leopard down the middle he can still take it with his tiger, although it would let my tiger in im now down a leopard and now he has major material and my dog cant win vs anything in the red squares.

I played a game in which I had available a winning plan, it was clear that it couldn't be stopped but would take around 40 moves to play out, I dont think jungle is a game suited to long time limits (or auto-vacation).

the method of this attack would take forever. adn could be countered indefinitely and wouldnt be worth the trouble unless it was a tournament. im sure he could stop me with out a mouse im pretty much helpless vs his elephantmy lion is rendered useless and must hold his ground. as does his elephant must stay or loss additional material thus giving me a win!

I see what you mean. I guess if you transfer your leopard to the central path before moving your dog to attack his wolf, the two fronted attack would be insufficient?

i saw that he had a clear path down the center and my dog was the strongest defense vs his dog. so i had to defend with the dog if i attacked with my dog his dog had undisturbed path to my lair. i missed a move by my tiger to jump water 3-4 moves earier. this got his tiger mobile. his dog was just to fast..

I'm surprised that you didn't carry on against LightningBolt, it looks to me as if you could win by bringing your dog to F9, your wolf to D6 and then your leopard to B7.

maybe it depends not only on the rating but also on the number of games which the person has played?

i was playing 2 differnt people recently and both were draws but when i got done the one game there were no points change in our ratings but hte other draw i again lost nothing but my opp lost 7 pts to his his rating both players were rated higher... but the player who was rated hihgest lost nothing.

i pretty much have figured out that you can force a draw everygame. there should be something put in that prevents this glitch! the game was a lot of fun until i figured it out. if anyine can beat me now tht i have figured it out all challenges welcome. i ahd to sacrifice a few games to figure it out though.

okay.
but now i want to discuss, if it is possibel to change the rules. because i think it's to easy to force a draw.

Tromyr: I've had a draw forced on me by CaoZ. I didn't like it but I accept the rules as they are and agreed to the draw regardless. Besides, logically, you can see that even if Fecner DID change the rules, it would be unfair to apply them to existing games.

Now the repetition is allowed because the administrator has decided my game with redsales as a draw.

That position looks to me like a win for black if the repetition is disallowed.

Well, I think it´s a big problem, I played such a game and finally I agree with draw...I couldn´t solve this position.
Btw, what do you think? Which player have bigger chances to winn?...the fist one with tiger and elephant, or second one with lion and mouse?

hm,
now my game with redsales is drawn by the administrator(!). thats also a possibility ;)

i've read the shogi-rules and i go along with ughaibus proposal.
Otherwise it is possibile to write in the rules that's not a good manner to threat with continuos check.

Such draws exist here in chess, but the rules of chess have no bearing on other games. The closest games to jungle are Chinese and Korean "chesses" I think repetition is illegal in both.

I think there should be a rule in brainking, that a game is draw automatically if the same position is repeated three times. Not only in this game. But it is hard to program that...
I think, you cannot compare this situation in Jungle with a check in chess, because the attacked piece is not forced to move away. What about a rule, that you have to make an other move or move an other piece, if you had moved out of a "Check" two times in the same way? :-)

For example if the same position is going to be forced by the same move by the player, that move becomes impossible. If you're going to have shogi at BrainKing this is an important point as repeating position three times with continuous checks loses for the checking player in shogi.

ughaibu: How would you actually make it? I mean how to detect such situation and resolve it?