In the 1950's.. America's so called Golden age, Most of the rest of the industrial world was rebuilding after being bombed and/or overrun by various countries armies. While American Conservatives are after a return to that golden period, they cannot. The divisions in Europe as agreed by the USA/Russia/UK have now gone. Imperial UK has given independence to much of the old empire. The USSR is gone. Billions spent on creating WMD's can never be regained.

The world has moved on. If American conservatives want to regain anything like that past period, they must follow one simple rule. Get over it.

.... and maybe start to spend less than 50% of the countries GDP on the military... which seems more important to them then their own citizens health.

Artful Dodger: Have you been living on Neptune to miss all the proof that has been published?

Artful Dodger: Hail Queen Kim!

> Bush Memoir Sells 2 Million Copies in 2 Months

I suppose that really takes away the fact that the Bush admnistration manufactured intelligence to justify a war that ultimately plunged a country into sectarian violence. I wonder if Haliburton will give back the $90 billion in profits they made thanks to the war.

Mousetrap: ... Hitler's favorite UK paper.

(V): Gotta be true!

The Daily Mail....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

Bernice:

> Poor security systems that are in place. .... god help my great grand kids.

I think a lot of people don't realize the extent of government secrecy, and what it holds for the future. Today everything is computerized, and computers are very good at collecting, sorting and storing data. Every time you buy something with a bank card, credit card or debit card, it is catalogued. Credit card companies (and their ugly cousins, the credit reporting bureaus) know EVERYTHING of our financial comings and goings. Every time we make a phone call it is processed through speech recognition systems. The telephone companies know EVERY person we have ever called. Banks know EVERYTHING we have bought using their bank accounts. When we walk anywhere with digital; cameras, our faces and bodies are potentially scanned for anatomical features that can identify us individually. Every medical procedure we ever had is now computerized.

Our governments have access to all that data, plus all the other data they collect themselves, like fingerprints, social insurance numbers, taxation data and even DNA.

At the present, nobody cares, but the day will come when governments will see political opponents as a threat. Anybody who does not agree with the system is a potential target. And we have given our goverments the rights to act in SECRECY under the guise of NATIONAL SECURITY.

I am not paranoid, but those people who fear big government should think twice before continuing to support the kind of power that computerized systems have placed in the reach of governments and the power-hungry men that run them.

Our grandkids will be scrutinized even more. I might not entirely agree with Wikileaks, but anything that starts dismantling the power apparatus that the new BIG BROTHERS have can only help to ensure that our grandkids will not be emprisoned in a digital gulag that controls every aspect of their life, from where they spend money to who they talk to on the phone. We have written laws that give our governments that kind of power (take the Patriot Act), we should set about dismantling those laws and ending the culture of secrecy that threatens everybody's freedom.

(V): they were here 1st...it was the europeeons that were the enemy

Conservatives where? The old west.. where the Red Indian was the enemy.

.... Bullets can't kill an idea.

.... where? Utah??

rod03801: ... true on that.. I did misread... bad nights sleep.

.. as for the subject line. .... No. It is not ridiculous. It's murder regardless of who you dress it that is being advocated.

... A bit like when USA citizens were giving money to the IRA and Sinn Fein. Some must of thought it wonderfully romantic. But the money was used to kill.

(V): Um follow the subject line. I wasn't commenting on that post.

rod03801: Really.. how?

This business of TOP SeCrEt can be a baroque thing. I know for certain that a project I worked on over a decade back was covered by the OSA, I can't talk till I die about what I did and saw working on what was a military project. Yet at the same time I know for certain the information is already out there on several sites, and the tech that was developed back then is now in extremely common use in the civilian world every second 24/7.

How it works is certainly NOT secret in any way shape or form.

.... about 99.99999% of everyone on this site has at least one of the everyday items using the technology.

..... Is just the embarrassment factor for the USA? Golly.. Much of that everyone knew. Much of all the documents were probably known by one intelligence agency.. Israel for example has many spies in the USA and bought quite a few people from what's been in the news...

.... Yet where is the witch hunt on that fact?

Übergeek 바둑이: you of course are right and it only shows up the P... Poor security systems that are in place. and when encryption keys (whatever they are LOL) are released it will be too bad...thanksfully the bottom isnt going to fall out of the world in my time (well no more than it has now)....god help my great grand kids.

(V): Ridiculous

Artful Dodger: Übergeek 바둑이 is right though. As a matter of example that you'd execute in cold blood a human.. it makes you no better then those who say they'll kill via terrorism.

rod03801: They tried that in WWII.. The French resistance is an example of those who would be tortured in the collecting/sending of info the Germans.

.... When a certain Chinese pilot (think I remember his nationality right) landed a MIG and through that action divulged USSR top secret technical data... was he handed back?

.. As a matter of observation. If the UK courts via an application by the likes of the MOD thought Assange was really causing major concerns to UK security. He'd be up on charges of treason.

... He ain't.

Übergeek 바둑이: All the more reason to be sure each one is severely punished

What Wikileaks did is probably the tip of the iceberg. I think that in the future there will be even more leaks, and bigger than this. One of these days somebody will release encryption keys for the Pentagon, the CIA, MI5, etc. Then entire networks will be compromised. All it takes is somebody who does not agree with the system. Going after the Wikileaks people will probably just make it worse. Now people will see the system as oppressive and controlling. It might just make things worse.

Artful Dodger

> No one said anything about executions.

>> The only thing the extremist muslims need is a bullet to the head. Kill them all is possible. they are all evil and all deserve immediate death. No battlefield caputres and this trial nonsense.

>> The US needs to execute by fireing squad any US citizens that leak classified docs.

>> I'd have had a CIA operative take him out months ago. And a few of his colleagues would taste the bullet as well.

I hate to hammer the same nail twice. It sounds to me that if a combatant is captured alive, the only way there are NO battlefield captures is if they are summarily executed. The other two comments speak for themselves.

What perhaps does it for me is that you claim to be a good Christian, yet you have no problem saying that it is OK to kill another human being for political reasons or to protect state secrets. You say I am a "dishonest" left winger. Is it worse than being a dishonest Christian? Or did Jesus preach killing others, even one's enemies? I won't make generalizations about the American religious right, but I do hope your comments do not reflect their beliefs.

Well, we as human beings are full of contradictions. All I can say is that politics and religion should NEVER mix (even if the Tea Party faithful disagree). It is in those instances that the best of us throw our most precious beliefs to the wind in exchange for political views. The reason why we claim to be better than extremists is precisely because we do not do summary executions, or have a take-no-prisoners attitude, or have a kill-all-traitors attitude. We should leave those to fascists, terrorists and extremists.

Artful Dodger: as I said below in reference to the USA...the truth hurts, well it looks as tho it hurts others as well don't it...too bad, I hope he keeps it up.....we have a saying here in Govt...."Keep the bastards honest" 'praps this can also apply to others ROFL.

"No one said anything about executions. I just said kill them in battle. That's Not an execution. I never advocated anything near killing those who oppose me. YOu made that up."

v

"The US needs to execute by firing squad any US citizens that leak classified docs."

Artful Dodger:

> And that is a great example of left wing dishonesty.

Dishonesty? I am not the one who wrote those comments. I merely regurgitated them back, and pointed out to the fact that the language is highly reminescent of how some führers used to talk, not about Moslems, but about Jews and Communists.

But then, I am just dishonest. I suppose better dishonest than fascist!

The truth hurts?

> The only thing the extremist muslims need is a bullet to the head. Kill them all is possible. they are all evil and all deserve immediate death. No battlefield caputres and this trial nonsense.

> The US needs to execute by fireing squad any US citizens that leak classified docs.

> I'd have had a CIA operative take him out months ago. And a few of his colleagues would taste the bullet as well.


Take no prisoners. Summary executions. Kill anybody who opposes you. Protect big brother at all costs. Sounds like something spoken by a true right wing fascist.

Artful Dodger: I don't trust him as far as I could throw him.

Artful Dodger: Personally, I think it could be even more devious than that.

Artful Dodger: That's right. ("wimpy prez") I wouldn't be surprise if his inactivity is quite planned.

Artful Dodger: which major bank is he onto now? apparently things are going to get real nasty when all this information is released..LOL

America has frozen his money...pathetic.

Vikings: ..... Military secrets?? .. what that the USA wants to spy on everyone? Or embarrassing war reports?

Artful Dodger: **i THINK HE'LL GO TO FAR ETC ETC""....why has it taken so long for everyone to start screaming about all this....
as I said below, if it wasn't for the "sexual" charges it would have just gone on as it was, and if it is so easy for people to get the US secrets and disclose them, doncha think you should be looking at your own security?

(V): well there you go, "I've always said that freedom of speech involves some responsibility, ..."
Publishing military secrets of another country = espionage

Vikings: ..... I've always said that freedom of speech involves some responsibility, as there is for any action.

So.. Is any free speech really free?

eg Some folks saying "kill, murder, maim" yet criticising anyone else for saying the same about their "precious" (to quote Gollum) .... kinda takes away the moral high ground they claim.

(V): so you are saying that you would have to pay repercussion for something you would say!!!! what about freedom speech!!!!

Wow.. alot of people here are into having people murdered.

.. but.... what about instead of getting others to do it... DIY!!

That is.. if you feel that strongly about the matter. Assange's UK bail address (for instance) is not exactly hidden.

Vikings: They'll evacuate and I'll get charged with disturbing the peace.

.. Try yelling "All Muslims are Terrorists" here in the UK and you'll get arrested for disturbing the peace and a few other criminal offenses.

rod03801: Yes.. I know he's not a 'US' citizen. I was being sarcastic over how some Americans are happy to use the "freedom of speech" bit to say anything without any responsibility towards what they say.

Try and watch some HIGNFY on youtube.. you'll understand!!

Artful Dodger: I agree with you regards "mentality"....procrastination is a killer and can ruin lot so things, but in this case it saved BinLadens life.....they say "he who hesitates is lost" but is that really true because BinLaden is now lost (to the USA) hahahaha

anyway...COS = guess LOL

Julian Assange was offered an opportunity and took it....made a lot of money and if he hadn't been accused of "sexual misfavours" then all this hoohah wouldnt have happened...

Artful Dodger: your on regards dinner (if only we could) lol... and he wasnt in hiding in 2001...just too clever for your lot hahahahaha

rod03801: **what has that got to do with (V)'s etc etc.***....nothing.

as you say...he is an enemy, but only because he is disclosing "stuff" that you lot don't want disclosed. they say the truth hurts,...it must do because of all the jumping up and down you are doing hahahahaha

Artful Dodger: In in the rule of law**.....who's law?

rod03801: you are only sh---ty because he is publishing US secrets that arent secrets but are now confirmed facts LOL....

As for taking him out AD.....hahahahaha you lot can't even take out Bin Laden....

Artful Dodger: Yet people in charge (led by the useless Obama) do practically NOTHING

Artful Dodger: Personally, I say take him out. As well as the traitor who gave him the info.

Bernice: What does that have to do with (V)'s comparison to our constitution? He is NOT protected under our constitution. He is an enemy of the U.S. and should be treated as such.

rod03801: he is not a US citizen as you say, but he fears extradition to Sweden and then from there to the USA....

It is full on in our news as he was born here in my town and then went to Magnetic Island which is a 15 minute boat ride from the mainland....

All he is really guilty of tho is publishing facts, he didn't personally steal them he was given them...

(V): Go to an airport and yell Bomb! and see what happens

(V): Are you for real? For one, he is not a U.S. citizen, and is NOT protected under OUR constitution.

In the news, the wikileaks dude Julian Assange has been granted bail. The claims of him running off (by the Swedish prosecution) were described as not having any credibility considering Mr Assange's previous behavior of complete compliance with the Swedish and English Authorities.

The Wikileaks founder fears extradition to the USA as a more likely possibility than being extradited to Sweden.

... So much for Freedom of Speech.. A right protected by the USA constitution.. or so the right wingers keep saying when they have something to say.. even when that what they say is questionable or basically a lie...

....yet the truth is a punishable offense!!