(V): "Sorry, but if they feel there is an exception, etc to the law, or the law is wrong they will speak up. Many judges do and that is how reforms come about, especially if the legislation is wrong."

It doesn't matter what they "feel." If the law violates precedent then yes, the courts can act (based on precedent). If the law violates existing law, then yes the courts can act (based on existing law). If the law violates constitutional principles, then yes the courts can act (based on a violation of a constitutional principle). But in now way do they act on how they "feel."

Artful Dodger: You are not everyone.... or a business.

As for banks being safer..... Not over here from what we've seen. They can make very BIG mistakes you know... I gave a hint on this by mentioning the RBS and mentioning how they messed up. They took part in the buying of another bank without accurate accounts from them and ignored warnings from their own risk assessment people.

Joe Public bailed them out.</b>

Artful Dodger: Sorry, but if they feel there is an exception, etc to the law, or the law is wrong they will speak up. Many judges do and that is how reforms come about, especially if the legislation is wrong.

(V): The economy is not like a car in anyway. It is not analogous. What you need is to show how in principle spending money can get one out of debt. The lottery will get you out of debt too. But only a few people. The vast majority of people spend with NO return.

Investments won't get you out of debt. I know. I've lost thousands. The banks are safer as they protect my principle.

When I spend money, it's gone. When I spend more than I make, I have to cut back somehow to catch up. That is a fact of life. You can NEVER show where governments can consistently spend more than is taken in and MAKE MONEY. It's never happened. Ever. Anywhere. Spending money NEVER gets one out of debt. Ever. Never. Nada.

Artful Dodger: It's called a business rejuvenation. Many companies that are going under have been bought and revamped through an influx of cash to modernise (etc) them.

I'd thought you'd have known that??

as to core principles...... that to me is nonsense. Things change, it's one of the true constants of the universe. We still are a developing race.

(V): "And as for the courts, judges do have the right to argue about the law, sentences and the like.. over here in poor ol' 'liberal' UK. Some do, some will also do in cases where it's more of a matter of personal feeling and not as such an illegal activity."

Yes, they interpret the law, often based on precedent. But the courts are not to make laws. The legislature makes the laws. And the courts don't legislate. They ought not to usurp constitutional authority. If they do, they are renegades and should be shot. At least ousted from the bench. They work for me by the way.

(V): "No, Bush lost the election as the trust in him and the Republican party went out of the window."

True. But WHY did we lose the trust? Because they abandoned core principles of conservatism. I'd never vote for him again. Regan yes, Bush no.

In general, spending is not a way to get out of debt for anyone. Rather than cite the exception, prove your point by showing how it is a good principle in general.

Vikings: ROFL@ Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares.

Artful Dodger: "And all the experts say it will be impossible to pay back at the current rate of spending."

You mean yours is an opinion and is not agreed by everyone.

And the liners made sense to me, as the liners are reflective of what I've seen. But that is because of UK news and a few other things.

I mean... your car won't run on an empty tank will it? If the tyres are bald it makes it dangerous to drive. So.... what do you do.. buy a new car or get more fuel and new tyres?

Artful Dodger: No, Bush lost the election as the trust in him and the Republican party went out of the window.

And if you looked at want your Pres and others have said that savings will be made from cuts in areas that spending is stupid. We covered this about a week ago in talks made by various folks of the Democratic party. And your Country is already in so much debt from Bush's admin.

And btw...More spending..... The RBS was going under through bad mistakes and bad deals, the government here saved the bank and now are looking at getting paid back. If the RBS had gone under the damage to this country, the banks workers and the public who have put their life savings into deposits or stocks and shares re the company would have been a real killer as to the UK's moral.

And as for the courts, judges do have the right to argue about the law, sentences and the like.. over here in poor ol' 'liberal' UK. Some do, some will also do in cases where it's more of a matter of personal feeling and not as such an illegal activity.

And Palin would make a good Pres.. sorry, but that is funny!!

Czuch: Steven Hawking amongst others have put their ideas out there for all to use. We also have it over in the EU where we collaborate on projects. Politics are forgotten, like in the development of the Euro Fighter, the big atom smashers we have.. Concorde, etc, etc.

And socialism is left wing, and considered over here by definition the same as communism or as near as.

But, that's how certain MP's of high rank have defined it, especially those in the Labour party who were on the far left.

I use China as an example as it is a fact. A FACT that the USA has borrowed much from China and imports many 'cheap' goods from China.. McD's toys, American flags, etc, etc.

Czuch: I know. I can't believe how much money the government rips off on us. It's extortion. We have no choice but to pay for their stupid spending habits. They are reckless with our money. Most people just are uninformed and don't give a rip.

My son loves Obama. But he can't tell me why other than to say Bush was an idiot. That's what we're dealing with. I don't dislike Obama. But he's a bad president. His policies are bad. And if things keep progressing as they have, he will trample on the constitution. Big government is well on its way.

Bush messed up big time with big government.

(V): Rubbish. You did not answer the question. You gave a non answer. Please explain exactly HOW you would manage to get out of debt by SPENDING MORE MONEY. They aren't investing the money and you know that. They are spending it on unneeded bridges, warm beer, and the study of earthworms. States are being forced to take stimulus money. No, on this point you are dead wrong. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get out of debt when you spend more money you don't have. Is the debt going down or up?

Way way up. And all the experts say it will be impossible to pay back at the current rate of spending.

Impossible.

So give a detailed answer how it works and no more of the silly one liners. Be specific.

(V): "As for gay marriage... quite frankly.. only about 52% voted to ban it.. hardly a clear majority is it. That is why judges do have the right I feel to contest Proposition 8. If the majority was very clear then ok.. but then again.. some of which the ban is based on is based on incorrect interpretation of Biblical scripture."

Under this form of logic, if 52% have voted in favor, then judges would have the right to overturn the vote because, in your words, it "wasn't very clear."

52% wasn't the final outcome. It was higher than that. In some counties as high as 76%. Either way, it represented just under a million voter HIGHER that were opposed to the measure.

A majority is a majority. It's not a consensus for sure; it's not a strong showing for sure; but, it's the majority. And when the majority speak, the courts should back off. They do not make policy. That is NOT the job of the courts.

(V): Nonsense. He's out spending all previous administrations. That's not the way to get out of debt.

Vikings: Spot on. Many Republicans are talking about returning to their conservative roots. Palin would make a great President. Obama will ruin the economy and put us into so much debt I'll be long dead and we'll sill be paying back from his reckless spending.

(V): Yes. Liberal policies. It doesn't matter who is spending the money recklessly. Liberals are tax and spend. Bush violated Republican principles. In fact, many Republicans strayed from their roots. That's why they lost the election.

(V): I have heard of Hawkings.... so what about him? I didnt say smart people cant come up with good ideas in socialist countries. But where are tyhey going to go to put those ideas into practice??? You got it!


....and what about China???? First, they are communist, not socialist, and its pretty easy to have tons of free cash available when you keep your people oppressed and use all of your countries wealth to buy US debt!!!


I really cant believe you would even hold China up as some sort of shining example, to be emulated????? That says enough to me about where your head is at

(V): It's not politics, it's bad ideas.

Politics of socialism is one of those bad ideas....

Vikings: No.. I answered. Doesn't mean you are going to like the answer!!

It's a TV prog where the chef turns restaurants that are failing around.

Czuch: Really?? China is doing what at the moment? And they loaned the USA how much money.. seeing as they own the biggest chunk of the USA's national debt re a foreign country.

As to innovations.. If the education system is good then politics has nothing to do with it. A genius is a genius. I mean.. which socialist (in a loose term) country launched the first satellite? Ever heard of Stephen Hawking??

Bad management can come from any form of government or company. We've just had one our privatised train companies go down the drain and our Gov has had to takeover the running.

It's not politics, it's bad ideas.

(V): in other words you can't answer how, just deflect the direct question,

Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares?

Vikings: I answered most of the stuff, and in some respects answered this as well. And yes... if the investment is done right then you can get out of debt. Some guy on Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares did it.

(V): Labour (a socialist party) has been in power for years and nothing has happened





Thats the biggest problem with socialism.... nothing ever happens! Where is your big industry, or growth, or innovations?????? The more socialist a country is, the less there is.....

(V): you are not answering my question, how would you get out of debt by spending beyond your means

Vikings: Same could said for many conservative ideas.. They don't work. Eg.. your private health system being so expensive yet in return not offering value for money.

Yet other countries have used 'liberal' ideas for years... and they've worked, and still work. While some polices have failed.. just as with a number of conservative ideas.

Eg.. our recent problem with MP expenses dates back to Maggie Thatcher and her government and the changes they introduced.

As for a full government takeover.. please... that is pure rubbish, Labour (a socialist party) has been in power for years and nothing has happened, many other countries have had liberal/socialist governments and there has been no government takeover. In some respects the conservatives over here have made more 'red tape' when last in power, something certain agencies over here are having to fight and struggle with.

(V): Your last line says it all about liberalism, "You feel" therefore liberalism must be right to do whatever it takes supervening the law if need be.


As far as Bama's great answer to Bushes spending, you seem to forget that deficits began with the "Liberal" great experiment of welfare and social security, both nobal ideas but as most liberal ideas just don't work
Imagine you being in debt lets say 50 thousand dollars, why would you go out and buy a 30 thousand dollar car and a 150 thousand dollar house and and think that you are getting yourself out of debt. Even the best economic liberal minds know that this isn't going to work,It will however turn democracy into a Full government takeover and then revolution (whether peacefull or violent)

Reagan, made California solvent, can't say that about Bama's state of Illinois. oh wait, he didn't run anything like Palin, there goes that argument for you but you will claim that the largest state with the most natural resources is not much to run.

Vikings: I don't see the point of your reply... Arnie is Republican by politics, and with respect, republican/conservatism is not a set ideology. There is no set normality to a party ideology, it is by nature going to be different from person to person. As it does over here within the conservative party as well as other right wing organisations.

As to your current president, He's inherited a huge national debt, got into power at the time of a worldwide depression. And quite frankly I do not see how you can accuse your pres of printing money when Bush has made it that the USA owes other countries so much money.

... Your president now is trying to cut that debt as well as make sure the USA does not fall into an abyss.

Btw.... "Palin a conservative, Reagan a Conservative"

Doesn't say much for conservatism in the USA from what I've seen. Irangate.. and Palin not knowing what she's talking about.

As for gay marriage... quite frankly.. only about 52% voted to ban it.. hardly a clear majority is it. That is why judges do have the right I feel to contest Proposition 8. If the majority was very clear then ok.. but then again.. some of which the ban is based on is based on incorrect interpretation of Biblical scripture.

Vikings: What's the matter with the people there gezzzz aye, aye, aye

heavenlyemma: uhmm, no it's the people of California that won't allow gay marriage, it's the hand full of judges who have exceeded their authority that have allowed it

Vikings: No not really he married a Kennedy but is not a Kennedy, he's just Arnie the muscle man that won't allow gay marriage etc lol

I'm not really into politics but had to say that lol

(V): First of all Arnie may be a republican but he is hardly a conservative, remember that he is a Kennedy.

As far as spending, that is clearly a liberal policy, don't think so, just look at the Bama administration, heck they will just print it if they need to, Did republicans spend too much, yes, republicans did and have let many in their party down, that is conservatives are upset, there is a difference, Bush is a republican, McCain a republican, Palin a conservative, Reagan a Conservative

Artful Dodger: I refer you to my post to Vikings

Vikings: Well now Arnie is running it and has been for a while. A republican.

And as for the policies.... We've had social policies and managed to do all right.. Even repaid the loans to the USA we owed from WWII.

So... it's not so much 'liberalism' but they way they've been doing their books. Bad management is bad management... I mean the USA national debt grew at a crazy rate under Bush.

Gonna blame that on liberalism??

Artful Dodger: Here is one I heard today... in my State, they used 600 million of stimulus money to balance the state budget!!!! REALLY????

On top of tht they passed some new taxes, including now I cant take a tax break for the interest on my two mortgages or the insurance for them, my two biggest tax breaks I have!

We have petitions out now to vote for a veto of this new bill, I think that has a chance to reverse it,but we have a liberal governor and a democrat majority, and they are running us dry!

Artful Dodger:  It's great that you are moving into low key.. hope your docs appointment gives you good  news.. didn't realize you were hurting again.. just know the stress levels will go down big time without all the anger and hate that can catch you from time to time on these dang boards. I rarely join in anymore.

(V):    I'm not sure what that has to do with what I've said.  All states have had their problems from time to time.  But as Vikings pointed out, the liberal policies of California have bankrupt the State.   So goes the US.  The current rate of spending under Obama cannot be sustained.  Make no mistake, Bush made plenty of mistakes with his fiscal irresponsibility.   The whole of the Republican party lost it's way.   Tax and spend will break the US economy.  California did just that.  They are an example of what NOT to do but Obama is following their lead. 

Joe Biden told a group of students that when they grow up they will get a free college education.  Really?  Free?  The colleges are going to allow students to come to their college for free?  Wow, that's sweet.  I had to pay for mine.  Now colleges are offering free tuition. 

What?  Oh, taxes are going to pay for it?  Like my taxes?  So my taxes are going to be used to pay for someone's college education and for all their health costs?  What's next?  

So it's not free then is it?  

This is how California failed.  Give give give but then take take take at the same time.  

Notice how politicans don't say "We're going to take money from those of you who work hard to earn it and give a little to everybody else regardless of their work ethic.  From the lazy to the industrious, all will qualify for "free" college and health care." 

No, they say they're going to offer free health care for everyone.  But it's not really free is it?

And they spend more than they can take in.  I don't know about you but I don't run my home that way.  Which is why I have lots of money saved in the bank and don't live beyond my ability to pay.  On a teacher's salary no less.  But the government is going to take more and more of my money to give it to others (even those who refuse to work).  

Exactly how California went bankrupt.   They can't even honor their tax refunds to those who overpaid!  They've sent out IOU's.  

Maybe I'll send an IOU to the IRS this year.  Yeah.  I'll tell them I'm doing what California did.  ;)

(V): that's the point, exactly, California is a failed experiment in liberalism, it was actually profitable when Reagan ran it, but now social programs, green policies, illegal immigration, socialized medical cost , etc. have bankrupted the state

Artful Dodger: California..... from what I gather it's had problems before balancing it's budget.... has it not?

Czuch:  I wonder how long it will take people who voted for Obama to see through his ideas for what they really are?  More and more jobs are being lost.  We are in debt up to our eyeballs and they are talking about another stimulus package.  Really?

Millions on millions of stimulus money went to building a bridge that hardly anyone uses.  Even the locals were scratching their heads.  And it created 30 jobs.  Jobs that end when the bridge is completed.  Yeah, that will help the economy. 

Millions more went to the study of the manufacture of warm beer.  Yeah, that's an emergency.  Let's take care of that right away. 

congress is now passing bills to comply with the dictates of the EPA.  Excuse me?  the EPA? 

Global warming is a farce. There is no such thing as a carbon footprint.  Idiots.  It's all about power.   More and more scientists are beginning to sing a different song about global warming.  They see that the reality is the trend is not global warming as temp have declined in the past ten years.  It's the cycle folks.

Remember back in the seventies?  The scare was global cooling.  It was an emergency.   Now it's global warming.  A farce.

Think not?   Consider this:  Homeowners will have to retrofit their homes to meet EPA standards.  So when you sell your home, you have to meet certain environmental criterion.  And who is to thank for that?

Obama.

Health care?  It's also a farce.  There's no money to pay for it.  All our taxes will go up and up and up. 

Look at California.  That's where the US is headed. 

And were not the only country facing this kind of stupidity. 

And the beat goes on  ;)

Artful Dodger: I saw her too.... I almost couldnt believe it, really!

And you are right, it was a breath of fresh air to finally see a liberal media type actually do something like that!

Thats all I want, and all any of us should want, for the media to actually just do their job, ask questions and report the news, without bias, and without making the news themselves! Finally!!

Vikings:  True.  That's what someone else said on the news.  The far left blogs are nudging out the liberal press.  And the press is jealous.

Still, it was fun to see Helen Thomas get feisty and bite the hand that feeds here. 

Artful Dodger: It was a good thing but at the wrong question, any knowledgeable person knows that the town hall format is pre-screened, it would have been a better question to ask as to why the press briefings are somewhat staged allowing liberal blogs to used as their puppets and moved toward the front of the line

Vikings:  It's another conspiracy theory.  I've started working on a blog and no, it's not on politics.  It's about teaching art to children.  My plan is to blog about everything I do in the classroom, including lesson plans, step-by-step instructions, and pictures.  Also a web site is in the works.  Art galleries.  That and the work with my band, yard work, grand children (I get asked to babysit a lot in the summer) plus the every growing honey do list, keeps me busy.   And the chest pains are back but it may just be from acid reflux.  I see the cardiologist on the 21st.   

I've had fun modding this board and I think I've even been modded myself once.  But it is the right time for me to move on to other things.  I appreciate all the support I've been given by the globals, and it's been a lot.  I leave on good terms and appreciate being allowed to moderate board (despite the baggage I still carry around a bit).   As I've said to someone else, I'm a reformed twerp.  I know my history.   It says a lot to me that I was allowed to moderate three boards. So for that I say thanks to all the powers that be. 

Ok, my official (off topic) goodbye is done.  The decision was mine.  No one asked me to resign etc.  I leave because it's time to move on and give the reins to another. 

Now, how about that Helen Thomas and how she grilled Obama's press secretary and held his feet to the fire on the White House's town hall meeting procedures?  Whoa!  That gal's got spunk for a old lady.  Anybody else see how she pointed her pen at the press secretary and after he said they'd "talk about this at a later time," she piped back, "No, we'll talk about this now!"   Yeah, and she's a liberal!  That's what the press should be doing, holding the President and  politicans accountable. !!!

Czuch: No news yet, same on all the other cases the IPCC are looking into.

Czuch: you're reading to much into this, he did come to a glob to resign, nothing more nothing less

Artful Dodger: I did nothing wrong. It was time to move on and give the helm to another.


time to move on so that a glob(yeah, you know, the ones who already moderate any board they want to)can become the main moderator????

Something doesnt smell right.....

Tuesday: second degree means that he didn't have it planned out, he just snapped