Is Sweden too liberal and has their policies advanced their society or cause more problems than they are worth? 

I just heard the public option is out.  

(V):  It's very hard to find bipartisan solutions when the goal of the GOP is to make Health Care "Obama's Waterloo".  He is going to have to work within his own party.  Unfortunately, the Dems are not all in agreement either on the public option because of misinformation put out by the insurance lobby, & people don't want to be educated.  They'd rather scream at town hall meetings.

And in regards to my last post.... when it came to GWII, was every detail expected to be available for scrutiny by those against Obama and his plans? Did Bush and his gov have a plan before invading Iraq regarding the reconstruction after defeating Saddam and his crones? ................ No.

I, like others did question that lack of planning, and those who supported Bush at that time said... so what. He's the President.

As I mentioned before.. Running a country can be like a building project, you cannot feasibly plan every detail ahead... A thing every manager of a building project knows. Even a simple job, like putting up a shelf can have complications.. a simple slip of the drill.. old plaster can lead to needing to think on the job.

I thought everyone knew that!!

Artful Dodger: Then I suggest you look on the web, the Whitehouse one maybe and pour over the details. It appears that Republicans and Democrats, Doctors, Nurses, drug companies, etc have all had input. And to detail every single bit would take hours, possibly days.. and I don't think any politician has that kinda stamina regarding their voice.

.... But as such, which ever President gets in (left, right or independent) ... you'll never be satisfied and find fault. That's if you want to that pernickety and pedantic.

As one book says.. no-one is perfect and to expect perfection is a foolish thing.

Oh btw.. Obama has stated that if anyone has any good ideas, he is happy to listen.. but to just trash a good idea over political partisan rhetoric he will not accept.

(V):  An idea or a concept is not the same as detailing one's plan. 

Artful Dodger: P R E M I U M S

btw.. have you been to a panto recently??

(V):
Yes he did.

No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn't

Yes he did.



No he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn'tNo he didn't

Hey, here's an idea.  How about you explain PRECISELY those details.  Remember, I said DETAILS.  Not theory. Not sound bites.  No general concepts.  DETAILS.

Artful Dodger: The part about your country's financial system melting down, that companies (such as car) were going to cave in, leaving many many people to go on social??

"But he hasn't detailed how that will happen. It's just a theory now."

Yes he did.

"And likely it will cost the US taxpayer tons. The government never has run a public service well."

Probably because there is so much interference from the private sector... I hear there is 5 lobbyists on ya gov's back regarding finance. And the health care public system (by the speech of Obama) is to be paid for by the premiums.. or did you miss that sentence in listening to his speech last week??

"Yeah. One has to wonder why now? Congress has allowed the fraud to go on and on and now they are going to fix it?"

Best it does get fixed now rather than left to go on. Bush wasn't brave enough to fix it, others have tried and had so much pressure put on them by elected politicians living in the back pockets of private sector business...

... I guess it's like our expense business over here. The opposition (conservatives) moaning about how bad it is, but it was their government who change the rules so the gravy train was so easy to ride.

We could play the blame game as infinitum, but isn't it best to just fix the problem rather than play partisan politics which solves nothing??

(V):  No.  Obama's bait and switch has to do with the whole package he presented and not just his health care idea. 

Obama said (as far as I read) that he would work towards reducing
Healthcare costs by about $2.5K.

But he hasn't detailed how that will happen.  It's just a theory now.  And likely it will cost the US taxpayer tons.  The government never has run a public service well. 

As such, making the market for
healthcare more competitive, cutting down on fraud,

Yeah.  One has to wonder why now?  Congress has allowed the fraud to go on and on and now they are going to fix it?   Guess they were saving that one for a rainy day.

As to Healthcare.. Obama said (as far as I read) that he would work towards reducing Healthcare costs by about $2.5K. As such, making the market for healthcare more competitive, cutting down on fraud, unnecessary tests, silly cop outs (such as "you didn't tell us you had acne, your insurance is cancelled") will do that.

Over here, we have plenty of price comparison sites where someone can shop for cheap insurance on cars, house, etc..... If the health insurance system in the USA was opened up in the same manner then surely it'd get to be a buyers market, where companies are fighting for peoples custom.

Isn't that living upto a pre-election promise??

Artful Dodger: As he said in his speech, more will be explained next week. He did the speech as many right wingers are making bogus claims about what he means, and he wanted to state his position, not 'spin'.

"Obama didn't clarify anything in his pre-election speeches. Few knew what he stood for."

Really.. I cannot agree from what I've seen of his pre election stuff. Plus if Obama was vague... then Palin and McCain were so vague that vague looks like a fact.

"others have said you were wrong in your analysis."

Nobody has presented anything to back their claims. That's my whole point. Where is the stuff to back up what some folks are saying??

"The budget experts are telling us (the people) that Obama's plans will only raise taxes and increase the deficit by billions (if not trillions)."

Can you elaborate and break down what these "experts" are saying, as it sounds like this is a general statement, not specific.

Btw.. The polls did show he was losing ground, but since his speech that he is gaining confidence... But if you have polls that differ, please present their figures.

(V):  It's not surprising that a high percentage of Democrats favor his "plan."   And it's true that he's clarified some of his ideas in his speech (which I DID watch in full).  Still, there are many unanswered question.  But back to your original claim.  You suggested that people ought not to be surprised with what Obama is doing as president because they knew of these things since he explained them in his campaign.  It's your assertion that's in dispute and others have said you were wrong in your analysis.  Obama didn't clarify anything in his pre-election speeches.  Few knew what he stood for.  It's becoming clear now that Obama wants to fundamentally change America.  That's why people are going crazy.  The budget experts are telling us (the people) that Obama's plans will only raise taxes and increase the deficit by billions (if not trillions).  There's no other way it can be paid for.  Obama can't explain how this will all work other than to speak in generalities and ambiguities.  

BTW, the polls show him losing ground, not gaining it.

Artful Dodger: I don't know where you got you figures from, but from a quick scan of polls.. I'd say it's divided. 85% of Democrats seem to approve of what he is saying.

As to clarity of his plans.. before the speech, many were not sure, but since that figure has decreased dramatically.

Part of the confusion over his plans seems to directly come from those who oppose him and his reforms presuming and creating fear... rather than a 'wait and see'.

Those who've watched his speech in full, seem to feel that he has a plan, he is explaining it... and, as he said, next week more will be released in clear legislation.

I got this info from scanning a few polls. Though as usual in polls a few % points either way has to be included as a matter of the inherent problem that polls have.

Jules, Obama didn't ever really outline the details of his plan.  He gave some general ideas and revealed his "big picture" but not the details.  Many questions have gone unanswered.

Also, Obama was put in the White House by the Independents.  Those same people are now scratching their heads because they are beginning to see the clear descrepencys between what was pre-election promises and post-election reality.  It's not the Right that's opposing his health care ideas, it's the Right, AND the Middle and those folks include many in his own party.

Artful Dodger: Ohhhhhhh yes he did. Or did you miss the bit about premiums paying for it??

And as for sound bites. THAT COULD BE SAID OF ANY POLITICIAN in the last 50-100 years in any country seeking to be the leader.

Please... I see nothing in any posts today that speaks, explains or debates any point!!

(V):"So in fact.. he was elected on the outline of his plans,"

You are wrong once again.  He did NOT have any such plan in place when campaigning.  Just typical election sound bites.  

(V):  Yes I listened to his speech.  And keep in mind that he's been in office more than 200 days.  More than enough time to have already clearly outlined his plan.  He still hasn't.  He hasn't outlined how it's actually going to be paid for or how it will look logistically.  He speaks in sound bites.  A speech is fine, but there IS NO WRITTEN PLAN to examine.   Obama wants to build the airplane after it's taken off.

Vikings: Yes he did IN HIS SPEECH.

Have you watched it??

Ok, I can wait for a few days if you want that to gather info!! Don't wanna spoil your football

(V): well since you can't (or don't want to) believe what you see in front of your own eyes. and since HE HAS SUBMITTED NO PLAN. All there is left for proof that is in the house bill. which has in it that no one can join a private group the year that that the bill is instated, I've seen it,and since the bill is thousands of pages long and I don't want to spend my football saturday finding more proof that you will ignore, I;m done, I've proved it, you ignored it

Vikings: *sigh* what part of listen to his speech don't YOU understand??

ALL politicians say rough policies when they are on the campaign run. They cannot be exact until elected and they've worked the figures.

Now.. prove me wrong, by direct analysis and not others 'clips'. I'm asked to do it, and do.

(V): what part of in his own words is "private insurance will be out of business in 10-20 years don't you understand, this is and has always been his goal. It doesn't matter if you listen to the entirety of his talks, he still lied thursday, the only context you don't like is the fact that you have been proven wrong.
His entire speech was a lie and a balloon and I or anyone who opens their eyes can see and prove it

Vikings: the fast clip has distorted his intent. It's a miss-mash of words put in order to create fear in right wing people.

No good. No evidence.. It would be better if you didn't rely on 'clips' and did the research yourself.

That's how us public trip up our politicians come the likes of "Question Time"

well here is a fast clip http://www.breitbart.tv/uncovered-video-obama-explains-how-his-health-care-plan-will-eliminate-private-insurance/

Vikings: Sigh... listen to his speech, it's kinda looking like you are just objecting out of Republican loyalty and copying objections from right wing webs.

Because he was very clear in his speech over plans.

Now, if you have any actual proof he lied. I (as we do in the UK) expect to see evidence in the form of what he said (then and now).. any links you've used (so I can see the whole of what is said on the site).

Basically prove it by his words and by showing how he has differed from the normal run of politics and how governments and policy setting and enactment works.

Simplesss!!

(V): Where's his plan? the whole thing was lies and balloons, HE HAS SUBMITTED NOTHING

YOU CAN'T PRODUCE WHERE HIS PLAN IS BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SUMMIT ED ONE

Vikings: I think you need to listen to his speech.. I'm concerned that you seemed to have missed alot of what he said.

It wasn't a trial ballon, that was very clear.

But if you do listen to it (or again).. just listen.

(V): you missed the point, HE LIED is the point.

And by the way can you point out anywhere he has submitted any plan or bill. no you can't because he hasn't. His entire speech was a trial balloon and that's it

Vikings: And they will unless they get competitive, stop cheating customers, stop cancelling insurances over things like "acne", stop defrauding the USA taxpayer.

There will be a shake up of the private business industry, that you'll get better cheaper insurance is a bad thing?? Or do you like over paying???

(V): and Obama clearly stated in the past that when a government option would be instated that the private insurance would be put out of business in time, therefore he LIED to the people in his speach.

Jim Dandy: Cool.. learning new things is fun.

I second Sweden!!

Artful Dodger: His speech seemed to clearly OUTLINE his plans for the healthcare system.. He clearly stated that he would be tackling the healthcare system before he was elected.

A certain amount of problems that ALL politicians face before being elected is being able to have full access to the government depts.

Did you listen to his speech in full?

"But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system."

All politicians are entitled to their opinion... but they are not the CEO. Like that Conservative MEP getting dosh spouting about the NHS.. His CEO of the Conservative party here in the UK totally rejects his opinion as being based on fact.

So in fact.. he was elected on the outline of his plans, such is normal politics that they need development, as he has been doing consulting with people from left, right and centre which can only be done after getting into office!!

This is just the way things work in government, most democratic societies work this way.

Jim Dandy:  Could you share what is it that you find interesting about the Swedish system?  Perhaps we could go from there.

Artful Dodger: I would pay money to see Glen Beck and Barney Frank do a Vegas act together, or maybe a sitcom

Jim Dandy:  Without Fox we wouldn't have leaned the truth about Acorn because the other networks ignored the story.  Now it looks like the Census bureau has severed all ties with that corrupt organization.  It will all unravel for them soon enough, thanks to Fox. 

Also with Fox, we couldn't see Barney Frank and O'Reilly have a shouting match or see Glen Beck cry.  And all them smart blonds on Fox....Megan Kelly especially.  lol  

Artful Dodger: what would we do without FOX

Jim Dandy:  With google, research is a click away.  Oh and Fox has a great search database too. ;p)

Now all we need is a topic. 

Artful Dodger: Who doesn't,but their are alot of intelligent political minds here.I would find it interesting how they read scenarios other than the ones they have become so familiar with.Folks who discuss the American political situation have to do research in order do be armed with valid points.I wonder if Americans are willing to also research international political situations and lend their opinions?

I'm not trying to cause trouble,I just find the topics here seem to always revolve around the USA,while the rest of the world spins round spins round

Jim Dandy:  I like home field advantage.

Artful Dodger: It would help us think outside the box,and remove homefield advantage for some

Jim Dandy:  Well, someone else will have to start it  ;)

Artful Dodger: I know you're up to it.I think it would be interesting to see how our political leanings translate to other countries environments

Bernice: It's a shame, this site has such a diverse population,but the political focus is so narrow

Jim Dandy: I have no interest in discussing Swedish politics.  But if you can find others that want to discuss it with you, suits me. 

V:  Like all Presidents, Obama was elected because people like him personally and like the policies he outlines.  However, Obama was elected on more myth than on substance.  He NEVER fully defined his presidency.  Contrary to your assertion, Obama NEVER clearly stated his policies.  And he certainly NEVER outlined his plan for health care.  Obama is the master of ambiguity.   He still hasn't clearly defined his health care plan.  Even members of his own party have different ideas.   For example, Obama says that the goal is NOT a single payer system.  But key democrats say that a government option IS THE LOGICAL STEPPING STONE to a single payer system.   He did not campaign on the single payer option.  In fact, Obama campaigned as a centrist.  He's governing to the left -farther left than his centrist democratic colleagues.  So in fact, obama  was NOT ELECTED by the people of America on the basis of his policies as stated before the election.

Jim Dandy: unless it is ENglish or American there wouldnt be any knowledge of other countries politics, and as Artful Dodger told someone on here their ignorance of american politics was showing etc etc....it would be the same with other countries unless you could get someone from Sweden it would all be the usual CCp that we seem to get now.

Artful Dodger: How about a rotation of discussion of the politics of countries around the world?

I nominate Sweden as the 1st on the rotation, those Swedes have a very interesting system

Czuch: Nahhh, minor adjustments are by nature going to happen just like in building or DIY.... otherwise he will not get re-elected. And if that is the case.. he deserves it.

"you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions."

How it happens here.. just certain over dramatising here is very unpopular except to minority groups, and they if they go to far....

Is it me.. or is there a bug in posting?

(V): correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong.... many times the whole room was standing to applaud the things he said, its just that is the private back room meetings, we know that what he says and what the reality will be are two different things, especially isf we dont fight it line by line, every step of the way.

Its not really that you have to be against any reform or changes, but if you just simply say, go Bam go, we trust you and believe you will do what is right, in all instances, well then you are going to end up with many unintended consequences.

It just part of the push and shove of politics, you cant leave either side unchecked and un scrutinized, it how we keep ourselves going more or less down the middle of the road, with each side pulling as hard as they can on the steering wheel in opposite directions.