Artful Dodger: Why is the government a worse option? Fraud and incompetence are everywhere.

I would like to see some figures comparing the fraud and incompetence in business against that in the public sector.

Back up your claim. It's your turn to prove things.. I'm always getting the job!!

(V):  Wrong again.  My words:

The government is a far worse option.

Nothing the government ever does with regard to social programs works. 
They all go bankrupt.  They are a bunch of incompetents.  It will end
up costing the US taxpayer far more than most are currently paying. 
and it's a fact that anyone can get health care treatment in America
regardless of the ability to pay.

Your false claim:  No. your statement was that government is worse than private in fraud and overpricing.

See, you've created a strawman.  Nice try.  But I never said that.  You either don't listen or you are deliberately twisting things.  Maybe both.  Reread what I said.  Lay off the beer. 

Artful Dodger: No. your statement was that government is worse than private in fraud and overpricing.

prove it.

*burp*

(V):   We're talking about government insurance.  Stick to the subject. 

Artful Dodger: Sure.. compared to whom? Show me figures that prove corruption in big companies is better than government... don't forget Madoff, the off shore accounts and other known fraud in your compilation

Take your time.. I'm having a cold one.

(V):  The government is a far worse option. 

Artful Dodger: Here we go back into fraud, money, big, bankrupt, blah...

Do you enjoy paying into a scheme that is based on profit? Big, money, fraud, bankrupt, blah.

(V):  You have to look at the long term benefits vrs drawbacks.  Keep what's working, fix only the broken elements of health care.

Nothing the government ever does with regard to social programs works.  They all go bankrupt.  They are a bunch of incompetents.  It will end up costing the US taxpayer far more than most are currently paying.  and it's a fact that anyone can get health care treatment in America regardless of the ability to pay.

Artful Dodger: What is radical about having a competitive health care system with no monopolies? What is conservative values.. you've yet to explain that.. they sure do seem to be different from our Conservative Party.

(V):  I'm not worried.  In one year the Dems will be out of power as they will be a Repub majority.  Obama will have 2 years left of his  lame duck presidency.  He'll never get reelected.  He will lose big time because his ideas are too radical. 

We need fresh blood in congress.  the old guard are out of touch.

Artful Dodger: Awwwwwwwwww don't worry, Fox ads are filling the slots... If you are lucky, maybe you'll get an uninterrupted show.

(V):  You still don't get it.  The way a boycott works is one group complains and the advertisers respond to the complaints.  They are no responding to the show, but to the complainers.  Two can play that game.  Thousands more are boycotting the boycotters.  

The law is on our side:  Our right to boycott. 

http://www.colorofchange.org/beck/

Join the boycott

Artful Dodger: By saying America wasn't ready for a black president.. you kinda imply that people in the USA choose by image rather than who someone is.

YOUR COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON THE RIGHT FOR ANYONE WHO IS OF THE USA TO BE PRESIDENT, no matter sex, colour, race or religion.

OH boy Who is playing the race game here?? I see head games that don't work.

Artful Dodger: And the point is.. you are saying. That a company does not have the right of freedom? That they cannot say when their products are advertised if they find a particular show distasteful?

The law is on their side, the right to choose.

gogul:  Beck rants against the corruption.  He speaks for middle America.   America apparently wasn't ready for a black president.  Seems one cannot criticize a black pres without being labeled a racist.  And it's a fact that Obama's policies will disproportionately favor blacks.   Affirmative action is wrong.  It still discriminates.  A black getting a job over a white because of his blackness is just as wrong as the other way around.  But go after affirmative action and you get labeled a racist. 

I see nowhere in anything Beck has ever said that would constitute hate speech.  That's another one of those tools of the left.  Play the race card or label speech hate.  Silence the opposition at all costs.  Marginalize. 

Beck is right. 

Artful Dodger: To me it doesn't make sense. This is big show and ranting to distract from the amorality of the establishment which Beck is part of. It will take some time to make this comprehend and to awake the will to change it but it will happen. The establishments, no matter if right or left, are robbing us, and Becks behaviour shows that he understands this and is running allready. Nothing can stop the lost of our ugly establishments, not Becks ranting, not Obamas silence about, nothing can stop the obvious :)

(V):  http://defendglenn.com/advertisers.php

Artful Dodger: And? What do you mean by that?

(V):  I will join the the thousands that are boycotting the boycotters

Artful Dodger: So? Is "Nielsen Media Research."??

Btw.. advertisers on this side of the pond do not want their products associated with Beck.

As you said, they are moving their money.

(V):  You are so uninformed.  The Huffington post is A FAR LEFT BLOG!

Interesting tidbit:  Color of Change is behind the boycotts convincing advertisers to pull out of Beck's program.  And who is one of the founders?  Van Jones. 

Perhaps every MSNBC viewer was in the audience for Tuesday's inauguration.

That's probably the most favorable explanation for the cable network's dismal showing in the inauguration ratings, where it came in last among all networks and trailed rivals CNN and Fox News in every daypart.

For the critical hours of 11AM to 2PM, MSNBC averaged just 2.6 million total viewers, 69 percent lower than Fox News (4.4 million) and 165 percent lower than CNN (6.9 million), according to Nielsen Media Research.

For the total day (6AM-3AM), MSNBC averaged 1.7 million total viewers, compared to CNN's 4.0 million and Fox News' 2.5 million. Things weren't any better in the Adults 25-54 demographic, either, where MSNBC usually performs well. CNN won the demo with an average 1.6 million to Fox News' 750,000 and MSNBC's 610,000.


Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/21/msnbc-network-that-opened_n_159860.html

Fox is NUMBER 1!!!   No advertiser is going to go to MSNBC where they will get a few thousand viewers when they can go to any Fox slot they want and get millions of viewers.

It's not accident that Fox is number 1.  People need to get over that fact.  Otherwise cheese will be served with the whine. 

Artful Dodger: And?

Artful Dodger: As you said about Beck "On Beck, who cares" .. "... was given the Key to the City where he grew up".

No.. they are not in the majority. Over here they would be arrested.

BTW... "But blacks need to get over it." ..... it's a bit hard when there are those alive who lived through it, and in some areas still do.

V:  On Carter's meaning:  you're way off base again.   On Beck, who cares.  His show is number one.  It's not about Beck, it's about the issues. 

BTW, Beck was given the Key to the City where he grew up.  There were hundreds of protesters.  But the supporters outnumbered the protesters. 

Free speech.  Look in the history of American politics.  You'll see lots of caracitures of American presidents.  Frankly I think the money goes too far.  But blacks need to get over it.  I'm tired of the race card.  It's easy to ignore morons that make signs like that.  They are NOT in the majority.  They just get the press.

then is it still true that advertisers are pulling out of having their ads during his program slot?

http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/glenn-beck-advertising-boycott-has-right-wing-bloggers-worried

".....So, what is it that Glenn Beck - and the other presenters on Fox, doing so wrong that advertisers are pulling their adverts hence the funding for that show?

Well - advertisers do a little more research than TV presenters and their producers. And it is a widely known fact that the American electorate voted for one B H Obama - and the manifesto that he brought forward.

I can envisage more advertisers looking at what the Murdoch owned channel is doing. And we all know how Murdoch feels about advertising revenue - he wants it and a lot of it. If the advertisers keep pulling out of the Beck show - who will be next? Fox have to start looking at being a bit more responsible - because, God forbid, someone goes stir crazy because of the incitement on their programming - I can see advertisers pulling away from them 100%.

Free speech is admirable in any society, yet with that right comes a great responsibility. "

rod03801: Carter was OTT, but he had a point, a degree of old thinking is still applicable just as it is here in the UK (as we see in the BNP) ... there is still a small minority in the USA that is racist and as such the old lines are still perpetuated.

The movement to total equality is still young, discrimination of various sorts still exists and will do for a time. Whether it be regarding race, sex, religion, sexuality, ideology, etc. And then there is the Politically correct crowd, some ideas of theirs going OTT...

... I read one article last night from a guy interviewing a politician that described Obama as "uppity", though the politician was too young to know consciously (or so was said) what it meant from days before, it is still in use.

As to no-one wants to be called a racist... then those who are making pics of your President looking like a monkey, or adding Obama's head to that of some African tribes man should stop.

http://www.appletreeblog.com/wp-content/2009/05/obama-monkey-1.jpg
http://binside.typepad.com/binside_tv/images/2008/05/14/obama_monkey_tshirt.jpg
http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/obama-monkey.jpg

Or from a certain link (I cannot post it due to severe content problems)

.......................................
Jesus or Satan?
White or Black?
Good or Bad?
American or anti-American?
Peacemaker or Terrorist?
Warrior or worrier?
Soldier or Socialist?
Angel or Devil?
White House or Rule of Darkness?
McCain or Hussein?

Folks, wake up! Can’t you see what Obama’s plans for America are? As soon as he is in office we will slaughter Americans and ship our body parts to his family in Africa for voodoo magic purposes! That is how they do it! My God, don’t let him become president!!!

This is a great campaign idea to help our fellow white-folk to understand why it’s actually racist to vote for Obama. I’d like to thank some smart Republicans in Clarendon County, Virginia for helping to educate misguided white folk who might betray their race.

*********************************************

This is what Carter was against.

Übergeek 바둑이: I only recently started listening to Glen Beck. I don't know if I have heard the same things that you have heard, but the times that I personally heard him calling Obama a racist, he was only making a point.
When I heard him doing it, it was in response to Carter's ridiculous statements. It was in response to Democrats frequently playing this sort of card, to make opponents not able to disagree without some sort of label. Unfortunately, these tactics kind of work! No one wants to be labeled a racist!

When I heard him calling Obama a racist, it was to make a point by doing the same thing that Carter did. I didn't get the impression that he really felt Obama was a racist.

You may be talking about a different incident of course.

From the UK guardian paper..

"The blame for this could be attributed to increased social and geographical mobility, more individualism or even New Labour ignoring the concerns of the white working classes. But oh no, ethnic minorities and multiculturalism are to blame, apparently. It is they who are deliberately trying to destroy public services, we are told.

In this respect, the rightwing papers are worse, paying lip service to the sensationalist idea that white culture is under attack in order to sell papers, rather than campaigning for anything useful. They know it is all too easy, yet completely futile, to blame minority communities, yet they do it anyway. They fuel frustration and resentment by finding easy scapegoats without exploring the underlying issues. But we (should) know all this anyway."

Artful Dodger: Explain it... can you?

(V):  google it

Artful Dodger: What is "white culture", what is "conservative values"???

As such white people are made up from a huge many of cultural backgrounds. I find the phrase "white culture" is a fallacy.

I grew up in the sixties and I've seen true racism.  It was displayed on TV every day.  In my lifetime, I've witnessed it first hand.  I've seen it in history and it's an ugly ugly thing.

But many people today cheapen what is real racism by playing the race card at every opportunity.  Calling Obama a racist is NOT a racist comment unless the comment itself was motivated only by the fact that Obama is black.  That is the single criterion for a racist comment. 

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are both racists.  They have shown throughout their careers that they favor blacks over whites AND blacks over truth.   Favoring a black man's position over a white man's position only because of the black man's blackness, is racism. 

Does true racism exist today?  Yes.  I saw evidence of it just the other day.  A black man was attacked by three whites as he walked down a street on his way home.  Three whites in red pickup truck jumped out and attacked him. They yelled racial slurs etc and like a pack of wolves they cornered him and beat and kicked him.  Clearly a racist act.  Caught on tape too and the morons were caught and are now in jail where they belong.

Someone is a racist when they show a consistent pattern of racist behaviors.  Obama is a legitimate target  for criticism of all kinds.  He's a public figure and as such, he is subject to the same rules of engagement all public figures must endure.   I don't think that Obama is a racist, but I do agree with Beck that Obama has huge issues with the white culture.  And Obama clearly wants to restructure America in a way that will disproportionately favor blacks.  That's a fact.  His ideas will clearly favor blacks.  Beck explained this fact and has been consistent on this point.

Notice too that instead of talking about the real problems that Obama is bringing to the US and even the world, notice that instead of talking about the fraud and corruption that Beck and others have exposed, there are those on the net, in the media, and on this forum, that focus on a person and NOT the issues.

That plays right into the hands of the left wing loons.  People ought not to be so easily manipulated.  What's the real issue here?  In the case of ACORN, it's the fraud and corruption of that group.  It's not about the fact that two journalists produced an undercover video. It's not about the fact that Fox played the videos and ran the story.  It's about the fact of Acorn corruption.  People ought to be outraged that a taxpayer funded organization was willing to provide services to people for the sole purpose of promoting underage prostitution.  That's the story.  Wise up folks.

Vikings: I did, as such from the definitions I found..

What is the problem?

Yes.. Carter was wrong, just as well as right wing adverts portraying voting for the Democrats is voting for terrorists to be able to nuke the USA.

Vikings: "I don't care what race is breaking in I just don't want to be stolen from"...

Ok.. but why then come across as it's all the illegal immigrants fault, as Beck tries to make out?

That is deemed as racism over here.

It's like me saying that since the KKK was banned at the time the NRA was formed that all NRA founders were KKK, and that all NRA are KKK by such of their association with the KKK.

And how is the President destroying your children's lives, I find that blaming the 'others' for such is just scaremongering.

Vikings:

Is it every Mexican who belongs to "La Raza" or is it a minority of them? I think Glen Beck's view of "Mexicans conquering American culture" is also a minority view. I doubt the vast majority of Americans feel that way. Among Latin Americans things such as "La Raza" are the stuff of ignorant uneducated morons. I doubt there are many Hispanics who would think that they are out to conquer the United States.

Well, Glen Beck seems to switch between very intelligent and very stupid. I think in all of his ranting there are some very valid points, and also signs of very stong opinions that can insult a lot of people. If he engages in name calling, then we should not be surprised if we can call Glen Beck names.

I think Jimmy Carter's comment on the healthcare debate was uncalled for. Saying that opposition to healthcare is coming from a racist bias against the president is inaccurate and misleading. If an individual opposes healthcare on racial bias alone, then that individual would fail to attract the vast majority of the American public. Republicans know this. They are not stupid.

I found Geln Beck's "racist" comment as bad as the time when people came out and called George W. Bush a "nazi". At the time outrage over the war was used as a shield by those who insulted the president in that way. People get away with that because they know that the president is in no position to come out and start slinging mud back at them. There was atime when I would not have questioned people insulting George W. Bush, but looking at the other side of the coin makes me realize that name calling wihtout thinking is wrong.

Übergeek 바둑이: "Mexicans are trying to conquer American culture"
That is a point of view by many Mexicans as well, they openly proclaim taking over the southwest. look up the meaning of La Raza. Flying the mexican flag over the American flag here is wrong, if you don't think so, go to Mexico and fly a Canadian flag over a Mexican flag and see what happens, there would be no need for ANY public opinion of the subject.
As far as Obama not being able to sling mud, do you really think Carter called 50% of Americans racist without Obamas knowing it? neive I say
And finaly if you are not able to express yourself then I feel sorry for you, where was the outrage when the left demonstrates and makes up claims ie. if you elect him black churches will burn?

I suppose it is OK for a news commentator to hide his own xenophobia behind the badge of the press. After all, saying that "Mexicans are trying to conquer American culture" is not xenophobic, it is just a man expressing some heartfelt by many Americans.

I posted some of Glen Becks comments. At times he sounds intelligent. I agree with him when he says that companies that hire illegal immigrants should be penalized. I agree that the problem is being ignored and that hte solution would be to make it easier for illegals to be legalized. Glenn Beck is very intelligent on those points.

Then he calls the president a racist knowing fully well that Barack Obama is not in a position to get into a mud fight. If Glenn Beck is not a racist, then he is a man who swings between intelligence and stupidity. He exposes himselv to being called a racist because going to a Hispanic and saying to their face "comprende?" is ignorant and insulting.

I Canada about 15% of the population was born in the US. I would ask, if a Canadian expressed himself about Americans in the way that Glen Beck expressed himself about Mexicans, how would Americans feel? In Canada that person would have been called an anti-American and he would most likely face legal repercussions.

(V): there is nothing racist about not wanting someone breaking into my house and taking what I have worked for and the police saying tough live with it. I don't care what race is breaking in I just don't want to be stolen from, same as I dont care if the president is pink with purple polka dots, I don't want him destroying my childrens lives

GTCharlie: Exactly.. I don't trust a party because they are right or left. They have to earn my trust by their actions.. Words they can use a plenty.. they are good at that

Artful Dodger: Yes they do, but not directly to kill Americans or like terrorists kill, bomb and maim.

"Some illegals are terrorists. Some are outlaws."

Which nationality are terrorists, as for outlaws.. I hasten to comment that many outlaws (if not most) in the USA (of a dangerous nature) are American citizens. To make out that the illegal immigrants in the USA is if not racist certainly playing on people's anger and fear through commonly associated metaphors generated by the press and other figures.

Feeling good by looking down on a particular personage by a general caricaturisation is a dangerous game.

Vikings: Is it, or is it how they are portrayed? Over here we have many trying to enter into the UK from Afghanistan and other countries.. Some are genuine, some are not. Problem is there are many 'business men' quite happy to make promises that they can get in. But as such, the means to detect entry has gotten better and many end up just waiting on the other side of the channel.

Portraying 'illegal' immigrants as being 'bad' is the same as portraying all school children as bad because a few bad apples (which you get in every barrel ) cause trouble. With respect, Beck's only party prospects over here are such as the BNP. He would not be recognised by our Conservative party or endorsed in any shape or form.

He tries to come across as just "anti - pc".. sure there is merit to that, but he goes beyond that as such using 'illegal' as a sign that they are all bad evil people. It is a subtle change, but one that has been employed for years. The nazi's did it with Jews, Stalin did it over capitalism, McCarthy did it with communists, etc, etc.

I ask you.. does this go for the children as well?

GTCharlie: GTCharlie: I can't evaluate it. Same with Beck btw. I probably like the provocation as well as these both do, that's why I looked up with this "a"-case.

A Beck can do and say what he wants, even if it's to propose a 7 year old girl to buy her a one way ticket to Africa. Cheep one. Over here the pharma industry has a unacceptable governing power, banks do/did. That's the dimension I miss well placed provocations. Lobbyism, that's enrichment at expenses of the populace, that's profiteering with full awareness, that's the declaired wish to treat us like a sponge. What did Beck, organising a demonstration of the tax payers? Pleeeeaaaz you feel good paying taxes? Aaaah I'm a good citizen I pay tax lol Civil disobediance is my recommendation for the next years, I'm gaining experiance with this myself. You can't change anything in health care as long as as you persuade youself that elected decide indepenently. Politicians need to live at an average level, something like 50K imo

gogul: Everything in moderation, never lock step to one side or the other , i like to say,, but Van Jones is not needed as he smeared himself too many times.Not a good man he is.

Artful Dodger: Really? I wouldn't have done this

Capitalism needs regulation, or it's getting out of hand, to the disadvantage of normal people. No regulation on regional scale, at the level we have an eye on each other, why not. But soon as politicians and businessman hide from the public, I'm in fovor of regulation with help of the prison.

Vikings: I use the "a" and "w" word pretty strait, not that I like that much. Compaired to the behaviour of global actors, still peanuts.

gogul:  Van Jones himself called himself a communist.